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Sign up with GoogleISPA feedback IRO ASA complaint
- Thread starter flyboy
- Start date
kickass72za
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Jun 11, 2004
- Messages
- 305
LMAO.... well that took them long enough........
What is ASA's plans going forward now???? if they are!!!!
What is ASA's plans going forward now???? if they are!!!!
guest2013-1
guest
- Joined
- Aug 22, 2003
- Messages
- 19,800
?????????/ where is it
Hell, my gran on a scooter with a memory stick is faster than Sentech's MyWireless!
Hell, my gran on a scooter with a memory stick is faster than Sentech's MyWireless!
Quote (I'm typing from a fax so forgive the typos):
>>>>
The Adertising Standards Authority of South Africa (ASA) requested an opinion from the Internet Service Providers' Association (ISPA) on complaints received about Sentech's MyWireless service.
Specifically, you requested ISPA's opinion on the following:
- The meaning of the term "broadband" in "internet speak"
- Whether broadband has any impact on the user or the user's speed.
- The likely expectation of a consumer when broadband is offered.
ISPA's Regulatory Committee has carefully reviewed all of the relevant documentation and wishes to make the following comments.
1. Meaning of "broadband"
ISPA consurs with Sentech's submission that there is no uniform or standardised definition of the term "broadband". However, in parctice, the term "broadband" is used in the Internet sector to differentiate higher speed access from traditional low speed services, such as dial-up Internet access.
Therefore, in ISPA's opinion, "broadband Internet access" is any form of Internet access which provides significantly faster access to the internet that traditional dial-up services. In ISPA's view, "significantly faster" means at least for or five times the speed of traditional dial-up services.
2. The impact of broadband on a user's speed
When used in the context of internet access services, the term "broadband" is always a measurement of the relative speed of the service. It *must* therefore have an impact on the speed of the service provided to users of the service.
3. Consumer expectations
Given that, in the context of internet access services, "broadband" is used specifically to differentiate high speed access services from traditional low speed services, ISPA believes that a consumer's expectation when a "broadband" service is offered is that the broadband service will offer access speeds several times greater than those provided by a traditional dial-up service.
In a South African context, Telkom was the first company to offer an internet service which could be described as "broadband". Specifically Telkom's ADSL access service offer download rates typically around six to eight times the speed of a traditional dial-up offering. Therefore consumer expectations for other broadband services are for similar access speeds.
ISPA also wishes to comment on portions of the complaint beypnd the three points specified in your request.
1. Contention ratios/speed of Internet access.
ISPA supports Sentech's claims that the Internet access speed are highly dependent on the number of people simultaneously using the service at a given time (the contention ratio of the service). However, while the argument that all Internet access services are subject to some level of contention explains why customers may experiance variable access speeeds, depending on the current contention, it does not address the issue of customers' expectations for the service, given the marketing of the product.
ISPA also notes that in section 2.1.2 of Sentech's response, Sentech states that "other internet service providers [...] do not give/state a speed a customer will receive, nor guarantee it in any of their internet service products that they sell. This is because they use the principle applied by all Internet Service Providers (ISPs), namely contention (sharing)."
Given this observation, ISPA is forced to question Sentech's choice of "MyWireless 128", "MyWireless 256" and "MyWireless 512" as product names. In ISPA's opinion, the inclusion of an access speed in the product name would seem to create some level of expectation that the access service provided will be a specified speed. Given that Sentech's service is also subject to contention, Sentech's own response seems to indicate that Sentech should *not* state a speed in its product names.
Further, in Section 4 of Sentech's submission, in response to one of the complainant's request that the words "SUBJECT TO CONTENTION RATIOS AND THROTTLING" be added to Sentech's advertisements, Sentech states that "contention is the applied norm [for] Internet service providers [and that] this omission does not constitute false or misleading advertising". This seems to conflict with Sentech's earlier observation that the industry norm is not to state speeds in product names.
In ISPA's view, where not speed is specified in the product name, there is not need to include "subject to contention ratios and throttling", since the consumer does not have a specific speed expectation. But where a product name does include a speed, it may well be appropriate to include clarification that the listed speed is subject to certain resptrictions.
2. Access speeds experience by customers using the MyWireless service
Sentech's response to the complaint does not appear to contest the complainants' claims that the effective throughput they are currently obtaining via their MyWireless service is comparable to a dial-up access service.
Since the likely expectation of a consumer ardering a "broadband" service is that the service will offer significantly better performance than dial-up (at least four to five times faster), it is of concern that Sentech does not address the slow speeds allegedly experienced by the complainants.
It is important to note that ISPA has not performed any tests of the access speeds that Sentech's service offers, and that we have no evidence that the speeds experienced by Sentech's customers are comparable to dial-up access speeds other than that contained in the complaints.
ISPA hopes that this input will assist the ASA in evaluating the complaints, and we remain available to provide further input on this matter, if necessary.
--- end ---
<<<<
Dr Potgieter (General Manager Marketing Department, Sentech)
and
Ms Jocelyn Scharrer (Managing Director, Scharrer Advertising and Marketing)
have been given until close of business on 22nd September to comment.
<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
<div align="right">Just because they <b>say</b> it's broadband doesn't make it so</div id="right">
>>>>
The Adertising Standards Authority of South Africa (ASA) requested an opinion from the Internet Service Providers' Association (ISPA) on complaints received about Sentech's MyWireless service.
Specifically, you requested ISPA's opinion on the following:
- The meaning of the term "broadband" in "internet speak"
- Whether broadband has any impact on the user or the user's speed.
- The likely expectation of a consumer when broadband is offered.
ISPA's Regulatory Committee has carefully reviewed all of the relevant documentation and wishes to make the following comments.
1. Meaning of "broadband"
ISPA consurs with Sentech's submission that there is no uniform or standardised definition of the term "broadband". However, in parctice, the term "broadband" is used in the Internet sector to differentiate higher speed access from traditional low speed services, such as dial-up Internet access.
Therefore, in ISPA's opinion, "broadband Internet access" is any form of Internet access which provides significantly faster access to the internet that traditional dial-up services. In ISPA's view, "significantly faster" means at least for or five times the speed of traditional dial-up services.
2. The impact of broadband on a user's speed
When used in the context of internet access services, the term "broadband" is always a measurement of the relative speed of the service. It *must* therefore have an impact on the speed of the service provided to users of the service.
3. Consumer expectations
Given that, in the context of internet access services, "broadband" is used specifically to differentiate high speed access services from traditional low speed services, ISPA believes that a consumer's expectation when a "broadband" service is offered is that the broadband service will offer access speeds several times greater than those provided by a traditional dial-up service.
In a South African context, Telkom was the first company to offer an internet service which could be described as "broadband". Specifically Telkom's ADSL access service offer download rates typically around six to eight times the speed of a traditional dial-up offering. Therefore consumer expectations for other broadband services are for similar access speeds.
ISPA also wishes to comment on portions of the complaint beypnd the three points specified in your request.
1. Contention ratios/speed of Internet access.
ISPA supports Sentech's claims that the Internet access speed are highly dependent on the number of people simultaneously using the service at a given time (the contention ratio of the service). However, while the argument that all Internet access services are subject to some level of contention explains why customers may experiance variable access speeeds, depending on the current contention, it does not address the issue of customers' expectations for the service, given the marketing of the product.
ISPA also notes that in section 2.1.2 of Sentech's response, Sentech states that "other internet service providers [...] do not give/state a speed a customer will receive, nor guarantee it in any of their internet service products that they sell. This is because they use the principle applied by all Internet Service Providers (ISPs), namely contention (sharing)."
Given this observation, ISPA is forced to question Sentech's choice of "MyWireless 128", "MyWireless 256" and "MyWireless 512" as product names. In ISPA's opinion, the inclusion of an access speed in the product name would seem to create some level of expectation that the access service provided will be a specified speed. Given that Sentech's service is also subject to contention, Sentech's own response seems to indicate that Sentech should *not* state a speed in its product names.
Further, in Section 4 of Sentech's submission, in response to one of the complainant's request that the words "SUBJECT TO CONTENTION RATIOS AND THROTTLING" be added to Sentech's advertisements, Sentech states that "contention is the applied norm [for] Internet service providers [and that] this omission does not constitute false or misleading advertising". This seems to conflict with Sentech's earlier observation that the industry norm is not to state speeds in product names.
In ISPA's view, where not speed is specified in the product name, there is not need to include "subject to contention ratios and throttling", since the consumer does not have a specific speed expectation. But where a product name does include a speed, it may well be appropriate to include clarification that the listed speed is subject to certain resptrictions.
2. Access speeds experience by customers using the MyWireless service
Sentech's response to the complaint does not appear to contest the complainants' claims that the effective throughput they are currently obtaining via their MyWireless service is comparable to a dial-up access service.
Since the likely expectation of a consumer ardering a "broadband" service is that the service will offer significantly better performance than dial-up (at least four to five times faster), it is of concern that Sentech does not address the slow speeds allegedly experienced by the complainants.
It is important to note that ISPA has not performed any tests of the access speeds that Sentech's service offers, and that we have no evidence that the speeds experienced by Sentech's customers are comparable to dial-up access speeds other than that contained in the complaints.
ISPA hopes that this input will assist the ASA in evaluating the complaints, and we remain available to provide further input on this matter, if necessary.
--- end ---
<<<<
Dr Potgieter (General Manager Marketing Department, Sentech)
and
Ms Jocelyn Scharrer (Managing Director, Scharrer Advertising and Marketing)
have been given until close of business on 22nd September to comment.
<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
<div align="right">Just because they <b>say</b> it's broadband doesn't make it so</div id="right">
loosecannon
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2004
- Messages
- 731
well done ISPA that is a intresting reply on a politicaly thorny issue (sucktech) been a memeber and i do feel the ASA will be kicking some sentech arse for lying to the pubic
lewstherin
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2004
- Messages
- 968
Yeah the IPSA feedback is pretty damning of Sentech's advertising. I smell grounds for a class action suit [
]
<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
]<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
NOT so fast, folks. The ISPA has basically said "it's not broadband" to the 128k service, and maybe even the 256k service.
But the ASA is a pretty generous bunch to advertisers, and usually just slaps them over the wrist and says "don't do it again". Look what they did to the Mweb Accelerator complaint. And Mweb STILL hasn't published the "proof" on their web site about the 3x speed (as opposed to 2.5 or 3.5)
The *BEST* we can hope for is the ASA says that the advertising is misleading, and that may be the basis on which to claim a partial refund for the service thus far.
All Sentech needs to do is remove the numbers from their product listing (i.e. call them bronze, silver and gold) and re-word a bit on their web site, and that's about that. They *don't* have to lower their prices, or even apologise in the media. Since their advertising campaign is largely over (or on hold given the bad publicity) it isn't going to affect them too badly at all.
And it *WON'T* force them to provide better service either.
The *worst* that can happen to Sentech is if they get told to remove the word "broadband" from their web site and other related media, including the "Broadband Modem Status Monitor". That would force them to re-issue all their software and reprint their modem boxes. But I really don't think it's going to happen.
<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
<div align="right">Just because they <b>say</b> it's broadband doesn't make it so</div id="right">
But the ASA is a pretty generous bunch to advertisers, and usually just slaps them over the wrist and says "don't do it again". Look what they did to the Mweb Accelerator complaint. And Mweb STILL hasn't published the "proof" on their web site about the 3x speed (as opposed to 2.5 or 3.5)
The *BEST* we can hope for is the ASA says that the advertising is misleading, and that may be the basis on which to claim a partial refund for the service thus far.
All Sentech needs to do is remove the numbers from their product listing (i.e. call them bronze, silver and gold) and re-word a bit on their web site, and that's about that. They *don't* have to lower their prices, or even apologise in the media. Since their advertising campaign is largely over (or on hold given the bad publicity) it isn't going to affect them too badly at all.
And it *WON'T* force them to provide better service either.
The *worst* that can happen to Sentech is if they get told to remove the word "broadband" from their web site and other related media, including the "Broadband Modem Status Monitor". That would force them to re-issue all their software and reprint their modem boxes. But I really don't think it's going to happen.
<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
<div align="right">Just because they <b>say</b> it's broadband doesn't make it so</div id="right">
loosecannon
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2004
- Messages
- 731
the thing you missing that slap on the wrist is very embarasing and will be able to be used by others for there benifit so when broadband truly arrives sentech will be marginalised totaly ....
you can also use this finding to go to the public protector and get them to investigate sentech ... toss some bad apples and put in management to run the company the way it should be run ... a propper BB provider
you can also use this finding to go to the public protector and get them to investigate sentech ... toss some bad apples and put in management to run the company the way it should be run ... a propper BB provider
I think ISPA has done a great job setting a norm for the meaning of terms when used in advertising Internet services.
At least there is now a guideline against which ad agencies could measure their ads - or get into trouble from disgruntled consumers.
Even if ASA is just giving the "don't do it again" slap on the wrist, the local Internetuser is the winner - no matter who the ISP is.
South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.
At least there is now a guideline against which ad agencies could measure their ads - or get into trouble from disgruntled consumers.
Even if ASA is just giving the "don't do it again" slap on the wrist, the local Internetuser is the winner - no matter who the ISP is.
South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.
Thats a very good reply from ISPA.
Definately a step in the right direction.
Standards need to be set for the delivery of internet bandwidth to customers -
it's crazy to be paying upwards of R1000-00 per month
for a service that you may or may not be receiving, depending on
whose opinion you listen to.
Imagine buying a loaf of bread, but when you open it there's only 3 slices in.
Then you take it back to the shop, and they say that's normal!
well done ppl...
Definately a step in the right direction.
Standards need to be set for the delivery of internet bandwidth to customers -
it's crazy to be paying upwards of R1000-00 per month
for a service that you may or may not be receiving, depending on
whose opinion you listen to.
Imagine buying a loaf of bread, but when you open it there's only 3 slices in.
Then you take it back to the shop, and they say that's normal!
well done ppl...
If Sentech has to remove the term "broadband" and the terms 128k, 256k and 512k from their marketing material, then they will logically also have to remove the term from their contracts which will immediately make them all null and void.
Effectively it means that all current users will have contracts for "128k", "256k" or "512k" "Broadband" services, but the company will no longer be allowed to offer these services as such. The only other alternative is if Sentech decides to actually start providing the advertised service.
Effectively it means that all current users will have contracts for "128k", "256k" or "512k" "Broadband" services, but the company will no longer be allowed to offer these services as such. The only other alternative is if Sentech decides to actually start providing the advertised service.
This fax just in:
From ms S Khosi (ASA) to Dr Michelle Potgieter (Sentech GM Marketing)
>>>
Dear Dr Potgieter
...
We acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 21 September 2004 and note its content.
We note that we have received complaints regarding your television, billboard and print advertising. We need to know which specific advertisements will be amended in line with the ISPA's opinion. We also need to know which aspects that were complained about will no longer be used.
Please revert to us with your comment before <b>close of business on 5 October 2004</b>
<<<<
They sent a <b>letter</b> dated 21st September, and the reply is sent back a week later. Either it was posted by snail mail (what about faxes?) or the ASA has taken a week to reply. Mmm ...
Reading between the lines it looks like Sentech have admitted wrongdoing. Did they have any choice?
<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
<div align="right">MyWireless: Diva-style reliability, dial-up performance (or worse)</div id="right">
From ms S Khosi (ASA) to Dr Michelle Potgieter (Sentech GM Marketing)
>>>
Dear Dr Potgieter
...
We acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 21 September 2004 and note its content.
We note that we have received complaints regarding your television, billboard and print advertising. We need to know which specific advertisements will be amended in line with the ISPA's opinion. We also need to know which aspects that were complained about will no longer be used.
Please revert to us with your comment before <b>close of business on 5 October 2004</b>
<<<<
They sent a <b>letter</b> dated 21st September, and the reply is sent back a week later. Either it was posted by snail mail (what about faxes?) or the ASA has taken a week to reply. Mmm ...
Reading between the lines it looks like Sentech have admitted wrongdoing. Did they have any choice?
<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards
<div align="right">MyWireless: Diva-style reliability, dial-up performance (or worse)</div id="right">