Israel Folau to be sacked by Rugby Australia over homophobic social media posts

Cius

Cius

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Asgard85 said:
"Life choices". A euphemism that people use to diminish the true nature of what is going on.

To be clear, homosexuality (or indeed any other orientation) is not a choice.

The only choice is whether to confront and accept one's homosexual (or other) nature and live accordingly - or not to.

The choice is how one lives, not what one is.

To expect of someone to live in denial of their own nature seems to me like a form of torture that one expects a victim to administer to him/herself.

Eff that.
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So we should allow pedophiles, necrophilia, and all kinds of kinky sex with animals too? Or are we torturing those poor souls who like that stuff too? Cause they also did not choose to be in love with small children/corpses/sheep.

Fact of the matter is society has been legislating this (via religion and laws of land) forever, and better continue to or all hell will break loose, and you can't base the argument on "should we even be involved in controlling who and with what people have sex with". There is no way to win that argument as it would open the the floodgates to all the "sicko" sexual desires. The question should be is homosexuality a disorder, like some others I mentioned, or normal. That is perhaps a more interesting debate.

Personally as a Christian I do not think of it as a disorder, any more than my innate preference for Brunette's that I could in no way explain (anymore than someone attracted to the same sex could explain why). However as I believe in heaven and I want people to get there my advice would be refrain, just as I have to refrain from chasing after another women I am perhaps attracted to who happens to not be my wife. If you believe differently, I have no issue with that. We are free to choose our lives, and our religion. I would fight for anyone to have the right to choose, provided it is not in some way hurting overall society or innocents obviously.
 
Asgard85

Asgard85

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Cius said:
So we should allow pedophiles, necrophilia, and all kinds of kinky sex with animals too? Or are we torturing those poor souls who like that stuff too? Cause they also did not choose to be in love with small children/corpses/sheep.

Fact of the matter is society has been legislating this (via religion and laws of land) forever, and better continue to or all hell will break loose, and you can't base the argument on "should we even be involved in controlling who and with what people have sex with". There is no way to win that argument as it would open the the floodgates to all the "sicko" sexual desires. The question should be is homosexuality a disorder, like some others I mentioned, or normal. That is perhaps a more interesting debate.

Personally as a Christian I do not think of it as a disorder, any more than my innate preference for Brunette's that I could in no way explain (anymore than someone attracted to the same sex could explain why). However as I believe in heaven and I want people to get there my advice would be refrain, just as I have to refrain from chasing after another women I am perhaps attracted to who happens to not be my wife. If you believe differently, I have no issue with that. We are free to choose our lives, and our religion. I would fight for anyone to have the right to choose, provided it is not in some way hurting overall society or innocents obviously.
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Always with the pedo comparisons.
Pedophilia does not consist of two consenting adults. It causes harm - actual harm to the child.
Homosexuality consists of two consenting adults. It does not cause harm (aside from making some other people who are not directly involved feel a little uncomfortable perhaps, but i'm not sure this meets the definition of harm).
They are not the same thing- it's not that difficult.
You do however make the same point at the end of your post though, so it would seem that somewhere we are in agreement to a degree.

With respect to your question about whether or not there should be control over who people should have sex with I would say that there should be some control - but based on rational reasoning, such as the point above about causing harm, not the religious views of some people.

My point is people feel "icky" / read it in an old book of rules and think that is reason enough to deny someone who they are when its no real bearing on anyone else - something that can be extremely harmful to the homosexual person.
 
Speedster

Speedster

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Asgard85 said:
/snip

To expect of someone to live in denial of their own nature seems to me like a form of torture that one expects a victim to administer to him/herself.
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According to my understanding, that would be a central tenant of Christianity. Human nature is inherently corrupted and hence, according to Christians, Jesus said "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me." Their message is that in Jesus hope can be found for the corrupt to become uncorrupted. Or something to that effect.
 
ponder

ponder

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Cius said:
There is no way to win that argument as it would open the the floodgates to all the "sicko" sexual desires.
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Yeah no, in some peoples book anything but missionary under a sheet in the dark could be classified as sick :oops:
 
T

Techne

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EADC said:
It's 2019 the height of human evolution and we still arguing if homosexuality is a choice.

Good lord
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Is it now or is it not? Some homosexuals say it is, some say it is not. Research suggest it is not clearcut. Which side are you going call idiots now so that you can feel better?
 
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E

EADC

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Techne said:
Is it now or is it not? Some homosexuals say it is, some say it is not. Research suggest it is not clearcut. Which side are you going call idiots now so that you can feel better?
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Denying nature that the omnipotent God created just baffles.
 
T

Techne

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EADC said:
Denying nature that the omnipotent God created just baffles.
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Thinking nature is completely deterministic are we:eek:. Looks like you fell for the pro homsexual propaganda that homsexuality is not a choice. Or is it anti homosexual propaganda:unsure:, because it sure look like it is doing more damage than good to the homosexual cause. Either way, it looks like you fell for the propaganda.
 
Speedster

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Techne said:
Thinking nature is completely deterministic are we:eek:. Looks like you fell for the pro homsexual propaganda that homsexuality is not a choice. Or is it anti homosexual propaganda:unsure:, because it sure look like it is doing more damage than good to the homosexual cause. Either way, it looks like you fell for the propaganda.
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Or perhaps you fell for the propoganda that it is not? Who gets to decide which side is right?
 
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buka001

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All the fascists saying who people are not allowed to love.

Nice, good to see it is the usual suspects.
 
rietrot

rietrot

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The guys who think it isn't a choice should probably get out of there mothers basement garage(whatever the SA version is) and go and talk to some people in the real world. I've had many gay guys tell me they can turn someone. Ridiculous as it might seem if that is true the turning can happen both ways.
 
E

EADC

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Well that settles it we all a little gay and this is just self hate.
 
B

buka001

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rietrot said:
The guys who think it isn't a choice should probably get out of there mothers basement garage(whatever the SA version is) and go and talk to some people in the real world. I've had many gay guys tell me they can turn someone. Ridiculous as it might seem if that is true the turning can happen both ways.
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Yes, because people who are gay in countries that have banned it, with the threat of death and live their lives in fear and go to great lengths at hiding it, have chosen to live like that ...

What those gay guys are actually telling you is that human beings sexuality is on a spectrum and due to social stigma, many people are somewhat less straight than they would like to admit. They would not be turning anyone, they would simply be helping someone realise their true self and learn more about their own sexuality, than society would like him to believe.
 
Speedster

Speedster

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Techne said:
Like...
http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/1529100616637616
Or
https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/number-50-fall-2016

Ever thought it is a bit more complex? For some it may feel it is not a choice and others it may feel it is their choice? Which side are you going to call stupid or ignorant?
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From the conclusions of the second paper you referenced:

Some of the most widely held views about sexual orientation, such as the “born that way” hypothesis, simply are not supported by science. The literature in this area does describe a small ensemble of biological differences between non-heterosexuals and heterosexuals, but those biological differences are not sufficient to predict sexual orientation, the ultimate test of any scientific finding. The strongest statement that science offers to explain sexual orientation is that some biological factors appear, to an unknown extent, to predispose some individuals to a non-heterosexual orientation.
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The suggestion that we are “born that way” is more complex in the case of gender identity. In one sense, the evidence that we are born with a given gender seems well supported by direct observation: males overwhelmingly identify as men and females as women. The fact that children are (with a few exceptions of intersex individuals) born either biologically male or female is beyond debate. The biological sexes play complementary roles in reproduction, and there are a number of population-level average physiological and psychological differences between the sexes. However, while biological sex is an innate feature of human beings, gender identity is a more elusive concept.

In reviewing the scientific literature, we find that almost nothing is well understood when we seek biological explanations for what causes some individuals to state that their gender does not match their biological sex. The findings that do exist often have sample-selection problems, and they lack longitudinal perspective and explanatory power.
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