Israel stole land from Palestinians for settlements

[adamr]

This isn't particularly important at all, and it is completely irrelevant, the only purpose that particular line had was to stir up a bit of emotion or whatever.

and exactly what that statement aims to do ... cause hate ... cause a reaction ... it is not irrelevant for the person doing the propaganda, he/she knows exactly what they want to achieve,

That statement appeals to the ignorant and uninformed people who will believe such a statement with the result that they ask … “Why do these Muslim people want Jerusalem if they show it no respect ... they should not be allowed any part of it! … “

And then all hell breaks loose …

 

[Xarog]

Just because you say a fact is irrelevant doesn't make it so, especially if it is not inherently false as you love to point out. The Fact that Israel became a nation state way back when is not irrelevant as they made Jerusalem back then. Just because this is uncomfortable for you by no means makes it irrelevant.

I called three things Irrelevant :

The fact that Israel was a Jewish kingdom before the rise of Islam, The direction in which people pray, and the circumstances under which arabs first left the area that is now Israel in 1948.

I still stand by all three of these statements. The first is irrelevant because this is a thing of ancestry, and the palestinian muslims are descendent from people that have been living there for centuries (they were Christians until the time of the crusades, when most converted to Islam from Christianity).

The second is irrelevant because there are Palestinian Jews and Christians too, and they also deserve to live in a place with full citizenship and rights and to live in a state that does not discriminate against them unjustly.

As to the third, so what? If I go on holiday does that mean you can take my house while I'm gone? If I believe that a meteorite is going to destroy the suburb, what then? What if I believe some angry boeremag people are going to sweep through the area and kill all the black people? Do any of these things justify you not letting me return to my house afterwards? If not, why should the conditions under which the arabs left matter one little bit regarding their right of return?

Sarcasm is not really debate but anyway: No. Because you don't see Israelis (you do realise there is a difference between jews and Israelis right?) whining about it, they are using it to explain why they need to defend themselves from murderers.

Sarcasm is a perfectly valid debating tool to show why something is ridiculous or should not be considered 'good'. And I don't really believe that the Jews who speak about the arabs chasing them into the sea are arabs either. Point is, its false to claim that they don't 'moan'.

(Side note : the claims of the Israelis needing to defend themselves from the arab hordes has some rather disturbing similarities to the whites in apartheid claiming they needed to defend themselves from blacks.)

Are you serious? If you make a statement it must be backed up when challenged. Halicons statements if untrue could be disproved with a simple google search, which none of you seem to be able to do. One can not show the absence of alleged racist laws or anything else. How do you prove the absence of something? Would you like a complete copy of the Israeli constitution?

Yes, it's impossible to prove a negative. On the other hand it should be quite easy, if the arabs moved into the area after the rise of islam, to find sources in history which point to this. Unfortunately I didn't find any, so I assume the opposite.

At no time did he agree with you. The issue at hand is should Israel give up Jerusalem to the Palestinians. The answer is no, which is then backed up by proving how much more of a historical, and religious claim there is for Israelis and Jews everywhere to Jerusalem then there is for palestinians.

I see nothing that marks this specifically as a Jerusalem issue. Care to point out where I missed this vital fact?

Again completely unsubstantiated trollop which you refuse to find sources for?

He made a claim, I told him he was wrong, he asked for sources. If I'm going to have to hunt for sources to prove him wrong, then he's bloody well going to first find a source worth proving wrong instead of quoting from a piece of propaganda BS or I'm just going to dismiss it on account of being ipse dixit.

have you even considered asking why the state of Israel was made where it was? Some random finger pointing exercise? Or do you think their is some history in that piece of land which was and now Israel? And then the cherry on top is calling me arrogant? Seriously, enlighten yourself it will do wonders in understanding the stupidity in your above statement and perhaps give you a deeper insight into this very contentious issue.

Of course there's history regarding the land. But you're trying to dismiss the half which doesn't suit you and then throwing your toys out of the cot when we contradict you. It seems if you don't like the sources we post then you just ignore them. What's rich is that you then claim we are the ones who can't debate.

It is obvious that no one here is willing to actually do their own research, instead they will resort to name calling, emotional outbursts and uninformed oppinions. Clearly you have chosen a side and you will stick to it with the same fanatacism your average Islamic terrorist has.

I've done research. You apparently chose to ignore it. You on the other hand...

So I hereby declare you a fanatic, because you ignore everything that's inconvenient (see all the points I made which you didn't respond to).

 

[rwenzori]

Your initial post is the reason why people have wars and why there is so much hate amongst Muslims and Jews … it is a holy place for the Jewish, Muslim and Christian people … and in the end it does not belong to anyone but God … so everyone should just live together and stop the damn fighting.

... this world needs peace not more wars and hate …

Your posts are wise adamr.

 

[Datura]

I love Israel, I am a citizen of Israel. I love the people there and pray everyday for peace. I wish all the factions there would just grow up and deal with the situation instead of bleeding the love from the hearts of the innocents whether they be Jews, Muslims, Drews or Christians. The evil politics on all sides provide the script for a diabolic feud which should in our day and age and "open mindedness" be easy to resolve. Such extreme opinions as presented in this thread are exactly what fuels the intense inferno over in that beautiful country and it engulfs the people that live there and makes the people struggling to live there give up hope. I just pray that someone with power will see the light and have the courage to take a risk and set the ball in motion that will show the people in that region that life as a unit is not just a concept but quite a plausable solution that everyone can gain from. I don't think I will continue reading this thread as it seems to be more personal attacks than discussion with extreme opinions being hammered on a personal level by more extreme opinions. I wish I had better words to express my feelings on the issue but I hope none the lesss that my opinion came across ok.


Salam, Shalom, Peace.

 

[kilo39]

I say arrogance because in one simple line you deny all history (duh, show me a map of Palestine) when you are the one pointing to all the history.

I say Look at the Map because maps show very clearly the expansionist policies of Israel.

Now let's see: I made some very simple statements (primary word Arrogance) then was met with a deluge of abuse including Fool, Terrorist, and Fanatic Islamist.

Gee, who's rich on the rhetoric?

About par for the course, then we wonder there is a problem: Idiot.

// Aye, Datura

 

[nocilah]

As usual i am hearing half assed reasoning as to why these facts are considered propoganda and I find myself repeating myself over and over and over, but such is the case when dealing with intellectually challenged individuals.

You say some of the facts are propoganda? Which ones? Give me a solid case. I repeat SOLID case.

Is it the one where Muslims turn their back on Jerusalem? Any gnat with some form of common sense knows that this statement is being referred to Muslims within Israel - NOT SA. And when in SA a Muslim will face Mecca NOT Jerusalem, and due to the distance off course their back will not face Jerusalem. But these facts are about Israel and being in Israel.

So to reiterate for the incredibly slow and those who suffer from a prosperous amount of stupidity.

Any Muslim within Israel turns their back to Jerusalem when praying.

So granted, I am hearing how these facts are propaganda but not ONE person can come forward and say: This is why it is propaganda. I am getting at this stage, very childish and stupid opinions based on nothing but uninformed ramblings which at this ,reminds me of 7 year olds arguing.

I have no problem with someone saying they are not facts - I have a huge problem when they use the silliest school yard banter to try and prove that. The level of enlightenment , knowledge and common sense about Israel, Muslims and this conflict being reflected by individuals in this forum proves to me that your opinions are based on bias feelings and nothing more and thus i have proved my point.

 

[mooK]

What if they're standing north west of Jerusalem?

This particular 'fact' is propaganda because it serves no purpose other than to stir up a little emotion about something which is neither here nor there. For the record, I basically agree with you, Halicon. But this 'fact' is bullshlt and means nothing, it's a twisting of the truth. Muslims don't turn their back on Jerusalem, they simply face Mecca, it's not done purposefully, and if they happen to be praying in a different location they may face Jeruslam as well. The Jews face the 1st temple in the old city when praying at the wailing wall, so their backs are turned on the rest of Jerusalem... so fcking what?

Okay, I'm starting to wonder why I'm wasting my time with this crap...

 

[Datura]

The Freaks Come Out!

 

[JBFRobisher]

Okay, I'm starting to wonder why I'm wasting my time with this crap...

You can't win with the braindead! It would be really quite amusing if it wasn't so sad. But there is obviously no point with someone who will not even look at a map, let alone understand it.

 

[TELESPHORE]

Reading this thread makes me understand that there is ALWAYS going to be conflict in the Middle East. I cannot see anything that slightly resembles adult behavior on any side when it comes to issues of land in that area. Not only just between Israel and the Arabs but the Arabs between themselves.
It is sadly a mirror of humans all over the world, not just there.

If there can be peace in the Middle East, I think that would be a good base reference for peace on earth.

Every time it seems to work, some fanatic group starts something that sparks off a new dynamite stick.

There is historical proof about the right of the state of Israel. There is also historical proof that so called Palestinians has been getting the bad end of the deal.

Just on the expanding map of Israel, my 2 cents. Those expanded areas were gained after Israel was attacked and the aggressors driven back. It is more an emotional reflex by those that were defeated to refer to is as expansion. Do not bet if you cannot afford to lose what you bet – or in other words – don’t attack when you cannot afford a loss – to the Victor the spoils.

I still cannot understand why the Arab nations fear Israel so much they cannot allow them to have a place of their own. Is it not jealousy to a certain extend?

 

[kilo39]

I agree that if invaded peeps have the right to repel same. If they gain some land in the meantime and don't give it back then fine for them. But this is not the case where Israel reigns supreme and have pushed the palestinians back into one tiny piece of territory and are now busy building a wall around them. A piece of territory that was called Palestine by the British now invisible in the great state of Israel - to the extent of "It's 2006, show me Palestine on a map." Ya right, cause it's not there anymore. But no, Israel can do no wrong.

 

[TELESPHORE]

How about some give and take. What is on the other side of the Palestinians? Are they willing to give something and Israel give something. How much do they need (apart from claiming everything).
The big uproar about the wall is that nobody can get through as easy before to create some terrorism.
The wall was to control influx. And why are they so upset? Because it disrupts plans for disruption. Seem like a tit for tat.
On the other hand – Israel would have some explaining to do if they are caught on the other side of the fence.

These are agreed on boundaries. That is it.

 

[Nick333]

Reading this thread makes me understand that there is ALWAYS going to be conflict in the Middle East. I cannot see anything that slightly resembles adult behavior on any side when it comes to issues of land in that area. Not only just between Israel and the Arabs but the Arabs between themselves.
It is sadly a mirror of humans all over the world, not just there.

If there can be peace in the Middle East, I think that would be a good base reference for peace on earth.

This is what religion has wrought.

Secular ideological conflict, which can be very bloody and destructive, just doesn't seem to have the staying power of God inspired idiocy.

 

[TELESPHORE]

This is what religion has wrought.

Secular ideological conflict, which can be very bloody and destructive, just doesn't seem to have the staying power of God inspired idiocy.

Where did I use the word religion or reference to it in my post?

 

[Nick333]

Where did I use the word religion or reference to it in my post?

I don't recall having said that you did.

 

[adamr]

Halicon ... why is it always that when a person looses an argument they revert to name calling ... and I wont stoop to your level. You can give 100 facts in a statement and just one statement which "twists the truth" and you can stir emotions and get people worked up ... that’s propaganda … period … no way to deny that … that’s what you have done!

I needed to just quote one statement you made in your initial forum and its enough! I am no historian and maybe all of us here on this forum are not as well schooled as you … but the “simple” truth is that your initial post is propaganda!

People are fighting and killing each other and maybe if you were there you would see a different story instead of just some spectator from thousands of kilometers away …

The word for the day people is “peace” … the word for the days to come should also be “peace” … its funny how these people who incite hate and war are never themselves involved physically in the “struggle”

My one and only quote for you is the definition of propaganda …

Propaganda is a specific type of message presentation directly aimed at influencing the opinions or behavior of people, rather than impartially providing information.
An appeal to one's emotions is, perhaps, the more obvious propaganda method, but there are varied other more subtle and insidious forms. A common characteristic of propaganda is volume (in the sense of a large amount). Individually propaganda functions as self-deception. Culturally it works within religions, politics, and economic entities like those that both favour and oppose globalization. Commercially it works within the (mass) market in the free market societies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda

 

[nocilah]

but the “simple” truth is that your initial post is propaganda!

and yet these facts lay unscathed by any hard evidence to prove these facts as propaganda, unless you are willing to lower your standards to third world uninformed opinions which so many have?

The word for the day people is “peace” … the word for the days to come should also be “peace” … its funny how these people who incite hate and war are never themselves involved physically in the “struggle”

There will never be peace in our life time or our children's life time. Quiet frankly i don't give a damn if the Muslims blow Israel sky high or vice versa and i will admit both parties create their own downfalls.

But let me tell you it takes two to tango and less for peace.

The conflict in the Middle East started before Israel was reinstated in the world which is contrary to what you like to call propaganda.

 

[Xarog]

Sorry for the late response, I've been in hospital. That said :

As usual i am hearing half assed reasoning as to why these facts are considered propoganda and I find myself repeating myself over and over and over, but such is the case when dealing with intellectually challenged individuals.

You say some of the facts are propoganda? Which ones? Give me a solid case. I repeat SOLID case.

Is it the one where Muslims turn their back on Jerusalem? Any gnat with some form of common sense knows that this statement is being referred to Muslims within Israel - NOT SA. And when in SA a Muslim will face Mecca NOT Jerusalem, and due to the distance off course their back will not face Jerusalem. But these facts are about Israel and being in Israel.

So to reiterate for the incredibly slow and those who suffer from a prosperous amount of stupidity.

Any Muslim within Israel turns their back to Jerusalem when praying.

So granted, I am hearing how these facts are propaganda but not ONE person can come forward and say: This is why it is propaganda. I am getting at this stage, very childish and stupid opinions based on nothing but uninformed ramblings which at this ,reminds me of 7 year olds arguing.

I have no problem with someone saying they are not facts - I have a huge problem when they use the silliest school yard banter to try and prove that. The level of enlightenment , knowledge and common sense about Israel, Muslims and this conflict being reflected by individuals in this forum proves to me that your opinions are based on bias feelings and nothing more and thus i have proved my point.

You have yet to explain why it in any way matters which direction anyone prays in. You have yet to prove why your facts are in any way relevant. The alternative is that you hand your house keys to me on the way to the airport because you don't pray facing the Divine Xarog in my back garden.

But we both know you can't, which is why you continue harping on these 'facts'.