It's just a Roman salute, says school in 'Nazi' matric photograph furore

[rambo919]

We have more factual evidence of the Armenian genocide and headcounts than what we have about the nazi death camps/genocide headcounts.

I am still waiting for the world to make the same amount of noise of the Armenian genocide. Oh wait I forgot its only a genocide when enough people decide to care about it or if there is some alternative motive behind acknowledging anything.

There is also that little thing called "real politiek".... even back then Germany said nothing because Turkey was a vital ally, today no one says anything for exactly the same reason.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

Holocaust denialism as it's accepted today is not outright denial of the holocaust occuring, it includes a range of typical statements about the holocaust and it's not only Nazi's who make them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial



David Irving is a holocaust denier who is not a Nazi (actually was a respected Historian) who engaged in all three...
Most notably he claimed that Hitler knew nothing about the final solution.

Assuming he's incorrect, what's the problem?

This just looks like an attempt to censure any sort of discussion about a contentious topic, which then provokes those who feel the authoritarianism breathing down their necks that there must be some kind of political rather than factual motivation for keeping the facts quiet.

 

[Cray]

Which is an example of true meanings being systematically perverted and weaponized, a common Marxist tactic. It means one thing but gets used in a different way eventually changing the perception of it's meaning and becoming automatically fired propaganda.

Strawmen, strawmen everywhere.

Eish, this Marxist bogeyman is getting tiresome. .. Perhaps if you actually did a little bit of extra reading you would know the true meaning behind the term as it is used in academic circles rather than just taking it at face value, perhaps you should stop burying your nose in all the Marxist conspiracy nonsense....

 

[John Tempus]

There is also that little thing called "real politiek".... even back then Germany said nothing because Turkey was a vital ally, today no one says anything for exactly the same reason.

Ok but then the world needs to stop pretending to care about one cause and ignore the others.

If that is the benchmark of who to care about then frankly I couldn't give a fk if holocaust happened no more than apparently the world cares about the other genocides. It didn't affect me so apparently I shouldn't care.

Sorted.

 

[rambo919]

Eish, this Marxist bogeyman is getting tiresome. .. Perhaps if you actually did a little bit of extra reading you would know the true meaning behind the term as it is used in academic circles rather than just taking it at face value, perhaps you should stop burying your nose in all the Marxist conspiracy nonsense....

No boogieman, many SA political parties are un-opologetically marxist and the ANC has injected it into everything it gained even a bit of power over. Calling something a conspiracy theory as a baseless smear does nothing to either prove or disprove it

 

[Cray]

Assuming he's incorrect, what's the problem?

This just looks like an attempt to censure any sort of discussion about a contentious topic, which then provokes those who feel the authoritarianism breathing down their necks that there must be some kind of political rather than factual motivation for keeping the facts quiet.

Am against laws that say holocaust denial should be a crime, however certain holocaust deniers take great exception at being labelled as such. Such as when David Irving sued Deborah Lipstadt for liable (a case which he lost)

 

[rambo919]

Ok but then the world needs to stop pretending to care about one cause and ignore the others.

If that is the benchmark of who to care about then frankly I couldn't give a fk if holocaust happened no more than apparently the world cares about the other genocides. It didn't affect me so apparently I shouldn't care.

Sorted.

Where would be the fun in actual intellectual honesty? It's far more convenient to lie to yourself and others.

 

[rambo919]

Am against laws that say holocaust denial should be a crime, however certain holocaust deniers take great exception at being labelled as such. Such as when David Irving sued Deborah Lipstadt for liable (a case which he lost)

EDIT: To add to that there is a difference between denying that something happened and denying the accepted narrative of it, calling both the same thing (denialism) is a effort to deceive.

If someone is an actual denier then no one has a problem with him being called such, the problem is where the term gets expanded disingenuously.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

Eish, this Marxist bogeyman is getting tiresome. .. Perhaps if you actually did a little bit of extra reading you would know the true meaning behind the term as it is used in academic circles rather than just taking it at face value, perhaps you should stop burying your nose in all the Marxist conspiracy nonsense....

Contemporary Marxism in action, exactly as was advertised.

"It's just a bogeyman".

 

[Cray]

Contemporary Marxism in action, exactly as was advertised.

"It's just a bogeyman".

Wow, one whole video of idiot students to prove a worldwide conspiracy that has even infected historical scholars to miss-use the term "holocaust denial"....

 

[rambo919]

Contemporary Marxism in action, exactly as was advertised.

"It's just a bogeyman".

Funny enough.... the Nazi's called concentration camps being bad a boogieman too.....

 

[Cray]

If someone is an actual denier then no one has a problem with him being called such, the problem is where the term gets expanded disingenuously.

If you had read the wiki article a bit further down...(assuming you even looked at it)

Scholars use the term denial to describe the views and methodology of Holocaust deniers in order to distinguish them from legitimate historical revisionists, who challenge orthodox interpretations of history using established historical methodologies.[5] Holocaust deniers generally do not accept denial as an appropriate description of their activities and use the euphemism revisionism instead.[6] The methodologies of Holocaust deniers are often based on a predetermined conclusion that ignores overwhelming historical evidence to the contrary.[7] In some post-Soviet states, Holocaust deniers do not deny the very fact of mass murder of Jews, but they deny the participation of their own nationals in the Holocaust.[8]

 

[STS]

If someone is an actual denier then no one has a problem with him being called such, the problem is where the term gets expanded disingenuously.

The other problem is that people KNOW what will get them labelled a HD, so they start out small and start introducing "facts" or stats that make them appear to not be a HD, to bait in an audience and asking them to be open minded. Then they open up with a crazy once people have taken the bait

 

[rambo919]

If you had read the wiki article a bit further down...(assuming you even looked at it)

Pages like this is why increasingly no one trusts any wiki page as containing genuine information anymore, most of them are spinned leftwards.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

Wow, one whole video of idiot students to prove a worldwide conspiracy that has even infected historical scholars to miss-use the term "holocaust denial"....

One whole video of an example of how critical theory teaches people to react to the world.

Do you think there aren't many other such classes where the same content is being taught by virtue of the fact that the people are being educated in deconstruction and other related concepts that tie this worldview together circa 2019?

Do you think it's not exactly the same old tired attempt to use moralism to shut down debate, as the communists have been so good at doing ever since they first rocked up on the political landscape?

It's the same tired old MO, it's crap, and it does a disservice to everyone it infects.

But of course, you're the one who really understands what Marxism is about in academic circles, and we ignorant fools, we know nothing.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

If you had read the wiki article a bit further down...(assuming you even looked at it)

But now you are contradicting yourself. Unless you can somehow show that Irving is being dishonest, by what you have described he's better termed as a legitimate but radical revisionist.

 

[Cray]

But now you are contradicting yourself. Unless you can somehow show that Irving is being dishonest, by what you have described he's better termed as a legitimate but radical revisionist.

I don't need to show that Irving is dishonest, the UK courts have already done that. He was called a holocaust denier by Deborah Lipstadt, he sued her for libel saying that this was false (in the UK where libel cases overwhelmingly favoured the complainant) and he lost, horribly. Come on dude, there was even a movie about it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(2016_film)

 

[Cray]

Pages like this is why increasingly no one trusts any wiki page as containing genuine information anymore, most of them are spinned leftwards.

Am starting to notice that everything you disagree with is either a marxist plot or leftist spin...

 

[Gingerbeardman]

I don't need to show that Irving is dishonest, the UK courts have already done that. He was called a holocaust denier by Deborah Lipstadt, he sued her for libel saying that this was false (in the UK where libel cases overwhelmingly favoured the complainant) and he lost, horribly. Come on dude, there was even a movie about it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_(2016_film)

Ok, so there was no outright evidence that he lied, the Judge made a judgement call on it and ruled that Irving's deviations from the accepted record were dishonest.

As the trial concludes, the judge, Charles Gray, worries the defence by suggesting that if Irving honestly believes his own claims, then he cannot be lying as Lipstadt asserted.

 

[Gingerbeardman]

Am starting to notice that everything you disagree with is either a marxist plot or leftist spin...

Am starting to notice that you can't acknowledge the influence Marxism actually has and discuss it in a detached manner.