It's just a Roman salute, says school in 'Nazi' matric photograph furore

Gingerbeardman

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I have stated that the term should not be used lightly and if the official account is questioned and backed up by hard evidence then I think it should be entertained or at least examined to get a more accurate picture of history. Irving has been found to ignore evidence that doesn't suit his narrative, most specifically the testimony of actual Nazi's (e.g. http://www.auschwitz.dk/Gerstein.htm )
who testified to the existence of the Gas chamber so yeah, I think he is pretty dishonest.
People ignore evidence they think is unreliable all the time. And people in general also have a tendency to discount information which conflicts with their views. This is certainly not unique to Irving, and is actually a very common defect among academics, which is why you need people from multiple viewpoints to add their 2c.

But without knowing more about Irving's response to what you're raising, I'm only speculating.
 

rambo919

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Nitpick: Marxism is left Hegelianism. Nazism is right Hegelianism.

They are nevertheless closely related.
Fair point, it generally really irks me when people assume you mean soviet communism when you say marxism. Western marxism, african marxism, soviet marxism and chinese marxism are very different monsters of the same family.... and that's ignoring the nazi branches of this freakshow of which Apartheid was a kind of cousin.
 

buka001

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Right, so starving people is not an industrialised execution process, even if it achieves exactly the same ends.

Hence it is valid to ask you if a less industrialised operation is not as bad, even if it is intentionally carried out and achieves the same outcome, for more or less the same kinds of prejudiced reasons.


Not seeing the relevance.


Lol, how am I not addressing it? I try to investigate it and you call it a straw man.

Of course you don't.

It is your typical way of not arguing a point and making people deal with a separate argument.

Nobody other than the Nazis created the level of industrialisation to carry out a direct mass killing of a specific group of people.

Starvation by the Russians killed a range of ethnic and religious groups.

The Nazis targeted Jews, Slavs, Roma, Disabled, Socialists and gay people. They set up departments with people with direct responsibilities, reporting structures who's sole purpose was to plan and direct the killing of these people. They had conferences on the subject to decide what to do with the Jewish Question. And so the Final Solution was born.

Statistics were kept, gas chambers were built, crematoria were built. Nobody has built infrastructure on the scale that the Nazis did, that had one single purpose - killing as many people as fast as possible.

There were a range of doctors who's sole responsibility was to segregate people at the camps, carry out heinous experiments at camps and other institutions.

Nothing on the scale ever attempted by anyone.

That is why it receives the attention it does.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Fair point, it generally really irks me when people assume you mean soviet communism when you say marxism. Western marxism, african marxism, soviet marxism and chinese marxism are very different monsters of the same family.... and that's ignoring the nazi branches of this freakshow of which Apartheid was a kind of cousin.
I mostly agree with you. Hegel and his totalitarianism has a fsckton to answer for.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Of course you don't.

It is your typical way of not arguing a point and making people deal with a separate argument.
I'm not arguing a point? Lol. I said I don't see why Nazism should take the top of the atrocity pile. I stand by that position. I don't think being a hyper effective killing machine makes the mass-murder worse. I think that whether it's gas chambers or soviet-style starvation, the end result is the same. If we're going to be trying to compare harm for harm, then stack the bodies next to each other and chips fall where they may.

Nobody other than the Nazis created the level of industrialisation to carry out a direct mass killing of a specific group of people.
I don't dispute that. I'm asking you why that should be the thing that makes it so horrible. It doesn't make sense.

Starvation by the Russians killed a range of ethnic and religious groups.

The Nazis targeted Jews, Slavs, Roma, Disabled, Socialists and gay people.
They both killed a range of ethnic and religious and political groups.


They set up departments with people with direct responsibilities, reporting structures who's sole purpose was to plan and direct the killing of these people. They had conferences on the subject to decide what to do with the Jewish Question. And so the Final Solution was born.
And Stalin used existing departments to achieve the same ends, using the machinery of the state to deprive entire regions of food by forced export. But apparently this is different somehow.

Statistics were kept, gas chambers were built, crematoria were built. Nobody has built infrastructure on the scale that the Nazis did, that had one single purpose - killing as many people as fast as possible.

There were a range of doctors who's sole responsibility was to segregate people at the camps, carry out heinous experiments at camps and other institutions.

Nothing on the scale ever attempted by anyone.

That is why it receives the attention it does.
OK, but that's not really a reason to declare that it was worse than anything else, that just means it grabbed more attention. I don't understand why I'm supposed to still be captivated a whole 70 years later to the point where it freezes the conversation for all time.
 

rambo919

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Of course you don't.

It is your typical way of not arguing a point and making people deal with a separate argument.

Nobody other than the Nazis created the level of industrialisation to carry out a direct mass killing of a specific group of people.

Starvation by the Russians killed a range of ethnic and religious groups.

The Nazis targeted Jews, Slavs, Roma, Disabled, Socialists and gay people. They set up departments with people with direct responsibilities, reporting structures who's sole purpose was to plan and direct the killing of these people. They had conferences on the subject to decide what to do with the Jewish Question. And so the Final Solution was born.

Statistics were kept, gas chambers were built, crematoria were built. Nobody has built infrastructure on the scale that the Nazis did, that had one single purpose - killing as many people as fast as possible.

There were a range of doctors who's sole responsibility was to segregate people at the camps, carry out heinous experiments at camps and other institutions.

Nothing on the scale ever attempted by anyone.

That is why it receives the attention it does.
Isn't that more of an indication of Soviet incompetence though?

To be more serious, the only reason they never tried it is their reliance on proving their idiocy correct, even they knew that if they had to slaughter people to keep 'utopia' stable the proletariat would never believe in it.... it was in their best interests to keep the maximum amount of people alive.... imprisoned maybe yes but alive.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Isn't that more of an indication of Soviet incompetence though?

To be more serious, the only reason they never tried it is their reliance on proving their idiocy correct, even they knew that if they had to slaughter people to keep 'utopia' stable the proletariat would never believe in it.... it was in their best interests to keep the maximum amount of people alive.... imprisoned maybe yes but alive.

As I quoted:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor
Robert Conquest, author of The Harvest of Sorrow, has stated that the famine of 1932–33 was a deliberate act of mass murder, if not genocide.[89] R. W. Davies and Stephen G. Wheatcroft believe that if industrialisation had been abandoned, the famine could have been "prevented" or at least significantly alleviated. They see the leadership under Stalin as making significant errors in planning for the industrialisation of agriculture:

[W]e regard the policy of rapid industrialisation as an underlying cause of the agricultural troubles of the early 1930s, and we do not believe that the Chinese or NEP versions of industrialisation were viable in Soviet national and international circumstances.[90]:626​

Michael Ellman argues that, in addition to deportations, internment in the Gulag camps and shootings (see the law of spikelets), there is evidence that Stalin used starvation as a weapon in his war against the peasantry.[91] He analyses the actions of the Soviet authorities, two of commission and one of omission: (i) exporting 1.8 million tonnes of grain during the mass starvation (enough to feed more than five million people for one year), (ii) preventing migration from famine afflicted areas (which may have cost an estimated 150,000 lives) and (iii) making no effort to secure grain assistance from abroad (which caused an estimated 1.5 million excess deaths), as well as the attitude of the Stalinist regime in 1932–33 that many of those starving to death were "counter-revolutionaries", "idlers" or "thieves" who fully deserved their fate.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Yes thank you.

Can you address the point of how the Nazis exceeded this by an order of a magnitude, in a far deeper and far reaching scope than ever before.
Address it how? Am I supposed to acknowledge your value judgement just because you made it or something?
 

STS

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That explains everything, we have a incel here.

Having kids kind of disproves your point, not that it was relevant in the first place to the topic of the thread. Cultural marxism getting you down? Don't worry, you can always turn to Nazism, the least atrocious of the two philosophies
 

STS

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Address it how? Am I supposed to acknowledge your value judgement just because you made it or something?

Just dodge it like you dodge every question, eezipeezi. Pretend you're at a war crimes trial to get into character
 

buka001

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Address it how? Am I supposed to acknowledge your value judgement just because you made it or something?
Not a value judgement.

Factual evidence of how the Nazis organised the genocide, the policies and laws they put in place, the infrastructure they built.

Deal with that.
 

Gingerbeardman

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STS: "So Hitler did nothing wrong?"
Xarog: "STALIN STALIN STALIN STALIN"
Hitler did lots wrong, just look at the body count. Stalin did lots wrong, just look at the body count. Mao did lots wrong, just look at the body count.

What more is there to address? You're not explaining yourself, you're just making yourself look like an utter clown.
 

rietrot

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Yes thank you.

Can you address the point of how the Nazis exceeded this by an order of a magnitude, in a far deeper and far reaching scope than ever before.
It's kinda meh. The Germans are industrious, their killing was also industrious.

I find the communist way more interesting if you are going to explore just how fsckup people can get. Most of that actually start of with good intentions, and then it spirals into a crazy mess.
 

Gingerbeardman

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Not a value judgement.

Factual evidence of how the Nazis organised the genocide, the policies and laws they put in place, the infrastructure they built.

Deal with that.
That they did this is a fact. But why that should be the particularly egregious element in a systematic murder is a value judgement which you have simply stated but not bothered to explain.

Sorry, but your morality doesn't take automatic precedence just because it is yours.
 
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