Ivermectin: balance of evidence shows no benefit against Covid-19

[Geoff.D]

Again is a very small movement you wont even feel it. Its probable you didnt notice it because you werent looking for it because you didnt know about it ?

But I do know about it and hence do look for it and KNOW when it is NOT being done.

BTW, if someone gets injected and there is blood flow from the site after the needle is withdrawn, please explain ( as you are the expert) how that is possible?

 

[semaphore]

Well in terms on aspiration for a technique he isn't wrong. Though I have never seen a medical professional not pull back on the plunger for IM. Maybe he thinks they not doing it or assumes you have to like really yank it. Just a simple tug will do. The negative pressure puts the plunger back into place so if you not watching carefully its easy to miss

No nurse (or medical practioner for that matter) is going to be lazy with it, its a malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen and we fear that sh*t its expensive and can ruin your life.

We already discussed the technique weeks ago, he brought up how the nurses or doctors near him are not doing it correctly because I guess he has administered hundreds if not thousands of injections in this year alone to be qualified to make that statement. I don't linger around vaccine sites like a vagrant as he does so I can't say for sure, but I know when I got both of mine done they asperated correctly.

 

[RiaX]

But I do know about it and hence do look for it and KNOW when it is NOT being done.

BTW, the if someone gets injected and there is blood flow from the site after the needle is withdrawn, please explain ( as you are the expert) how that is possible?

I'll say it again your eye is amateur. Geoff we already know all this you havent discovered anything new.

You bleeding from the skin or subcut tissues. Where ever you use invasive techniques there will be blood.

Go do an experiment take a blood lancet the ones used for finger pricks to test and go poke yourself. You'll bleed. Do it anywhere where it has no chance to touch muscular tissue, you will still bleed

and if you really want me to sink your aspiration boat, the CDC claims you dont need to aspirate the covid vaccine

 

[JohnStarr]

But I do know about it and hence do look for it and KNOW when it is NOT being done.

BTW, the if someone gets injected and there is blood flow from the site after the needle is withdrawn, please explain ( as you are the expert) how that is possible?

How many of these sites are you visiting on a daily basis to form this opinion?

Sounds like an attempt to pull another one over our eyes here.

 

[Geoff.D]

I'll say it again your eye is amateur. Geoff we already know all this you havent discovered anything new.

You bleeding from the skin or subcut tissues. Where ever you use invasive techniques there will be blood.

Go do an experiment take a blood lancet the ones used for finger pricks to test and go poke yourself. You'll bleed. Do it anywhere where it has no chance to touch muscular tissue, you will still bleed

and if you really want me to sink your aspiration boat, the CDC claims you dont need to aspirate the covid vaccine

Out of the 30 I helped, only 3 had ANY bleeding from the site.

So what if my "eye" is that of an "amateur"? And maybe I missed a few where aspiration did happen and where aspiration did not. So what. You CANNOT guarantee that aspiration is being done everywhere in SA. And, neither can I claim the opposite. We now know there are definitely TWO places where it is practised, that is in your environment and daveogg's. At least when you are looking it is -----

That was and still IS NOT the reason for this line of debate. It is about a poster who claimed it was a theory which it is by now we all agree ( at least you and I and a few others) that it is not a theory.

And yes, that is where all this comes from, the damn CDC and that is based on that stupid research document published in 2014. Do you want me to post the link?

I will have to find a way next month to watch the good doctors videos to see what he says about "aspiration".

 

[JohnStarr]

Out of the 30 I helped, only 3 had ANY bleeding from the site.

And yes, that is where all this comes from, the damn CDC and that is based on that stupid research document published in 2014. Do you want me to post the link?

I will have to find a way next month to watch the good doctors videos to see what he says about "aspiration".

How are you helping to give IM shots to patients with no qualifications to do this? Were they they same 30 people you helped to get vaccinated?

 

[PsyWulf]

You bleeding from the skin or subcut tissues. Where ever you use invasive techniques there will be blood.

Actually,come to think of it,Doctor Geoff with his First-aid certification should be well aware that any needle puncturing the skin will trigger blood in the average person and as part of that training also be proficient at recognizing Capillary,Veinous and Arterial bleeds

In case he may have forgotten though since he did get certified in the 1820's

 

[Cosmik Debris]

There is no maybe about it. We were taught the technique and specifically told wahy it was necessary,

You were? In First Aid Level 1? They don't teach invasive techniques at that level.

Thank goodness not many. But would one a week for a relative who needed to get an injection and could not do it himself.

No pharmacy, clinic or medical facility close by in Pretoria East then?

Yes! And insulin is administered subcutaneously. Hence why I saw to it that myself and all members of the family were taught how to administer injections, and the way to do that was to ensure everyone was taught ALL the correct techniques.

Who taught them and where? No paramedics available near you?

Out of the 30 I helped, only 3 had ANY bleeding from the site.

Who allowed you into the medical facility?

I will have to find a way next month to watch the good doctors videos to see what he says about "aspiration".

Why not just go back to the medical facility you helped 30 people in?

And yes, that is where all this comes from, the damn CDC and that is based on that stupid research document published in 2014. Do you want me to post the link?

You, completely medically unqualified, can say when a medical research document is stupid?

 

[Hush9300]

Again is a very small movement you wont even feel it. Its probable you didnt notice it because you werent looking for it because you didnt know about it ?

I always look to see what is being done and the plunger is only touched upon depression. Needle is inserted as if holding a dart and then plunger is depressed.

I can be wrong and it hasn't been a concern until this whole Covid thing. No harm no foul.

 

[RiaX]

Out of the 30 I helped, only 3 had ANY bleeding from the site.

They must bleed. The bleeding stops quickly because its a small puncture of the skin. It'll take seconds to clot. It also depends on the individuals. The 3 that bleed longer did they take aspirin in the last 3 days ? did they have alcohol (thins the blood) recently there are 100s of variable to why you only saw 3 bleed. I guarantee you all 30 bled. Unless you were inspecting the acutal original cotton ball the staff used before discarding in the bio bin and putting a fresh one. Once the skin is broken it has to bleed, its a protective measure to seal the wound.

And yes, that is where all this comes from, the damn CDC and that is based on that stupid research document published in 2014. Do you want me to post the link?

No its ok. We just aspirate all IMs its just easier to remember. There is no such thing as a IM were you mustnt aspirate, at least to my knowledge.

If you have a problem with the CDC perhaps you can message them.

Geoff, I'm not trying to make you look stupid. Im trying to educate you I can see you have genuine concerns but you getting lost in frontier medical science. You need to understand basics first.

 

[RiaX]

I always look to see what is being done and the plunger is only touched upon depression. Needle is inserted as if holding a dart and then plunger is depressed.

I can be wrong and it hasn't been a concern until this whole Covid thing. No harm no foul.

It shouldnt be a concern. The human body isnt as fragile as some people make it out to be. Usually what the nurses do they tug it ever so slightly, itll look like they adjusting the injection depth. Though next time you go ask your nurse/dr giving your injection.

I dont know if tetanus needs to be aspirated or not. As I said its just easier to aspirate all of them it becomes too much to remember.

 

[Geoff.D]

It shouldnt be a concern. The human body isnt as fragile as some people make it out to be. Usually what the nurses do they tug it ever so slightly, itll look like they adjusting the injection depth. Though next time you go ask your nurse/dr giving your injection.

I dont know if tetanus needs to be aspirated or not. As I said its just easier to aspirate all of them it becomes too much to remember.

That is the point, why worry about what is being injected, just practice the technique for all IM injections and be done.

 

[RiaX]

That is the point, why worry about what is being injected, just practice the technique for all IM injections and be done.

Yes thats what we do ? which is why im telling you your eye isnt trained enough to see it. At least here in SA. I cant speak for the entire world

 

[Daveogg]

I see their has been some discussion regarding vaccination technique. This is my ramblings on it.
Their is biologic plausibility and some animal data (on adeno vector vaccines) that direct intravenous administration will cause undesired effects.
The deltoid is a relatively avascular structure, but it is a muscle so to say their are no blood vessels is wrong. Also in general we know that vascular anatomy is highly variable between individuals.

When VITT was noted, I think it was via Dr John Campbell (nurse) videos that I became aware of this possibility, and did some superficial reading of the mouse studies.

About this time our nurses were receiving training on the vaccine administration process. I asked them about aspiration. They all confirmed that part of the training was that aspiration was NOT required for these vaccines. ( But they all said they would aspirate anyway as it has become an ingrained unconscious part of giving an IMI injection). I suggested that despite what they had been told, to use their usual technique of a quick aspiration.

I have pondered why no aspiration would be specifically included in training. My only conclusion is that perhaps in anticipation of mass vaccination needing a "less skilled" vaccinators workforce and the conclusion was that including aspiration as part of the vaccination process could cause confusion?

Having had the original and booster, and closely watching I can confirm a quick "tug back" on the needle for both of my vaccinations.

As an aside, lets tone down the antagonism. Geoff and myself certainly don't agree on everything, but their are few people in the real world that agree with everything I believe and vice versa, yet we can remain friends. I am sure over a beer and a braai most of us would get along just fine. I think we are going to have a rough few weeks coming up, lets try keep sight of the goal that most of us here have in common - getting back to normal.

 

[JohnStarr]

I see their has been some discussion regarding vaccination technique. This is my ramblings on it.
Their is biologic plausibility and some animal data (on adeno vector vaccines) that direct intravenous administration will cause undesired effects.
The deltoid is a relatively avascular structure, but it is a muscle so to say their are no blood vessels is wrong. Also in general we know that vascular anatomy is highly variable between individuals.
View attachment 1201474
When VITT was noted, I think it was via Dr John Campbell (nurse) videos that I became aware of this possibility, and did some superficial reading of the mouse studies.

About this time our nurses were receiving training on the vaccine administration process. I asked them about aspiration. They all confirmed that part of the training was that aspiration was NOT required for these vaccines. ( But they all said they would aspirate anyway as it has become an ingrained unconscious part of giving an IMI injection). I suggested that despite what they had been told, to use their usual technique of a quick aspiration.

I have pondered why no aspiration would be specifically included in training. My only conclusion is that perhaps in anticipation of mass vaccination needing a "less skilled" vaccinators workforce and the conclusion was that including aspiration as part of the vaccination process could cause confusion?

Having had the original and booster, and closely watching I can confirm a quick "tug back" on the needle for both of my vaccinations.

As an aside, lets tone down the antagonism. Geoff and myself certainly don't agree on everything, but their are few people in the real world that agree with everything I believe and vice versa, yet we can remain friends. I am sure over a beer and a braai most of us would get along just fine. I think we are going to have a rough few weeks coming up, lets try keep sight of the goal that most of us here have in common - getting back to normal.

Best of luck that side Doc. Got family and friends who are pharmacists and doctors and I am sure they're gearing up for this.

 

[Daveogg]

Best of luck that side Doc. Got family and friends who are pharmacists and doctors and I am sure they're gearing up for this.

Thanks John, at least we have had a few practice runs now ;-)
More worried about my friend who has mortgaged her house to keep her restaurant alive and was needing a good December, and my niece who has resigned from her job to take up a position in the UK in Jan.

 

[JohnStarr]

Thanks John, at least we have had a few practice runs now ;-)
More worried about my friend who has mortgaged her house to keep her restaurant alive and was needing a good December, and my niece who has resigned from her job to take up a position in the UK in Jan.

It honestly sucks, and this useless government isn't helping people.

 

[RiaX]

Best of luck that side Doc. Got family and friends who are pharmacists and doctors and I am sure they're gearing up for this.

Im used to it now. Though I'm not as frontline as the nurses and Doctors. Its times like this im glad I chose B-Pharm over MbChB .... sorry dave

Then I see the fuel price and I immediately regret my decision

 

[Geoff.D]

I see their has been some discussion regarding vaccination technique. This is my ramblings on it.
Their is biologic plausibility and some animal data (on adeno vector vaccines) that direct intravenous administration will cause undesired effects.
The deltoid is a relatively avascular structure, but it is a muscle so to say their are no blood vessels is wrong. Also in general we know that vascular anatomy is highly variable between individuals.
View attachment 1201474
When VITT was noted, I think it was via Dr John Campbell (nurse) videos that I became aware of this possibility, and did some superficial reading of the mouse studies.

About this time our nurses were receiving training on the vaccine administration process. I asked them about aspiration. They all confirmed that part of the training was that aspiration was NOT required for these vaccines. ( But they all said they would aspirate anyway as it has become an ingrained unconscious part of giving an IMI injection). I suggested that despite what they had been told, to use their usual technique of a quick aspiration.

I have pondered why no aspiration would be specifically included in training. My only conclusion is that perhaps in anticipation of mass vaccination needing a "less skilled" vaccinators workforce and the conclusion was that including aspiration as part of the vaccination process could cause confusion?

Having had the original and booster, and closely watching I can confirm a quick "tug back" on the needle for both of my vaccinations.

As an aside, lets tone down the antagonism. Geoff and myself certainly don't agree on everything, but their are few people in the real world that agree with everything I believe and vice versa, yet we can remain friends. I am sure over a beer and a braai most of us would get along just fine. I think we are going to have a rough few weeks coming up, lets try keep sight of the goal that most of us here have in common - getting back to normal.

Thanks for the reply appreciate it. The point is, there is never any good reason for throwing out proven techniques that have always been practised based on a sound knowledge base, just because of expediency.

All I did this time around was point out it was NOT a theory but a fact and you have shown why it is a fact. Thanks for that.

And for CONFIRMING despite the rant Riax started that the local training of new personnel did NOT/does not include Aspiration. There was no point in his rant except another desperate attempt to discredit someone who might not be an "expert" in the field.

And confirming my initial point that the ONLY ones I saw practising the technique were intern doctors and older experienced nurses.

The art of observation is NOT restricted to experts --- it is a function of someone who really looks and absorbs what he sees and hears. And then analyses it extensively to understand what is going on.

I appreciate your support.

 

[RiaX]

Even if you dont aspirate you not going DIRECTLY into the bloodstream. When they say directly they mean IV. You not going to die nor will you get any extreme side-effects if no aspiration was done btw.

So I'll say it again, you over doing it with the technique of the injection to paint a negative image of the vaccination process.