Jeffrey Epstein: US financier 'charged with sex trafficking'

buka001

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2009
Messages
8,283
Full suspension is not required; most hanging suicides are done by partial suspension, according to Wyatt et al.[21] Geo Stone, author of Suicide and Attempted Suicide: Methods and Consequences, suggests that death by obstruction of the airway is more painful than by the other ways


You can hang yourself without being completely suspended, it's well documented.
Michael Hutchence died that way I think.
 

theratman

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
10,031
The point of hanging is to snap the vertebrae and spinal cord in the neck - it's meant to be instant and painless. There's an actual science behind it with thickness of the rope, weight of the body and the height involved in the drop (note: there has to be a drop for it to be effective). That generally only applies to executions, obviously - suicides are usually always sloppy, and usually drawn out, traumatic and painful. But if it doesn't kill you instantly, I think survival instincts take over when you're choking to death - and you automatically try and save your life.
Yes but that doesn't always happen, look at the choking game fad for example. The trouble when you're hanging is your bloodflow to the brain gets cut off, so while you'll have a survival instinct kick in your body can't do much if you're passed out. But yes it's much better to hang with a calculated drop wrt to effectiveness and suffering.
 

Cray

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
22,789
The point of hanging is to snap the vertebrae and spinal cord in the neck - it's meant to be instant and painless. There's an actual science behind it with thickness of the rope, weight of the body and the height involved in the drop (note: there has to be a drop for it to be effective). That generally only applies to executions, obviously - suicides are usually always sloppy, and usually drawn out, traumatic and painful. But if it doesn't kill you instantly, I think survival instincts take over when you're choking to death - and you automatically try and save your life.
That survival instinct doesn't help if your are unconscious or can't regain your feet- David Carradine died accidentally of autoerotic asphyxiation hanging in his hotel room closet. They initially thought it was suicide..
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
The point of hanging is to snap the vertebrae and spinal cord in the neck - it's meant to be instant and painless. There's an actual science behind it with thickness of the rope, weight of the body and the height involved in the drop (note: there has to be a drop for it to be effective). That generally only applies to executions, obviously - suicides are usually always sloppy, and usually drawn out, traumatic and painful. But if it doesn't kill you instantly, I think survival instincts take over when you're choking to death - and you automatically try and save your life.
You wanna explain how a 6ft tall man hanging himself with a bedsheet from a bunk bed would break his own neck bones?
 

STS

Mafia Detective
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
31,849
I think I've made my point. His neck was broken, but it wasn't from hanging.
There are videos on liveleaks of people hanging themselves on their feet, I can send you some links if you would like a sample?

There are 3 ways to die from a hanging: broken neck, blood choke or asphyxiation. Even if he was strangled to death(which is likely but lets use Occam's razor), the same injuries could have happened or not have happened.
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
There are videos on liveleaks of people hanging themselves on their feet, I can send you some links if you would like a sample?
Were their necks broken?

There are 3 ways to die from a hanging: broken neck, blood choke or asphyxiation. Even if he was strangled to death(which is likely but lets use Occam's razor), the same injuries could have happened or not have happened.
Neck breaking is more likely to happen during a murder than a suicide. Epstein wasn't displaying any indication of suicidal behaviour, and it's pretty obvious that a lot of very rich, powerful and famous people had motive to get rid of him. Prison hits are also a fact of life. You don't get to invoke Occam's razor if you're ignoring some of the facts in order to concoct your "most likely" fiction.
 

Cray

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 11, 2010
Messages
22,789
Were their necks broken?


Neck breaking is more likely to happen during a murder than a suicide. Epstein wasn't displaying any indication of suicidal behaviour
You mean apart from the behavior that got him put on suicide watch in the first place?
 

STS

Mafia Detective
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
31,849
Were their necks broken?


Neck breaking is more likely to happen during a murder than a suicide. Epstein wasn't displaying any indication of suicidal behaviour, and it's pretty obvious that a lot of very rich, powerful and famous people had motive to get rid of him. Prison hits are also a fact of life. You don't get to invoke Occam's razor if you're ignoring some of the facts in order to concoct your "most likely" fiction.
Actually bruising and contact with other materials would happen during a murder, assuming he fought for his life and didn't just lay down to be murdered.

* What is more likely, that a string of people(politicians, investigators, guards, medical examiners) are in on the murder or there was a moment of incompetence from the prison guards?
* Why did Epstein's OWN lawyers argue to take him off suicide watch?
* After the first injuries, how was he not murdered?

It's time to grow up
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
Actually bruising and contact with other materials would happen during a murder, assuming he fought for his life and didn't just lay down to be murdered.
Not if the murderer was careful and knew what they were doing.

* What is more likely, that a string of people(politicians, investigators, guards, medical examiners) are in on the murder or there was a moment of incompetence from the prison guards?
Only a small number of people need to be paid to look the other way. So far as I understand it, the MCC staff aren't co-operating with investigators, so we're not getting information one way or the other in that regard.

* Why did Epstein's OWN lawyers argue to take him off suicide watch?
Most likely because they knew he was not suicidal.

* After the first injuries, how was he not murdered?
What?

It's time to grow up
So when will you?
 

STS

Mafia Detective
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
31,849
Not if the murderer was careful and knew what they were doing.


Only a small number of people need to be paid to look the other way. So far as I understand it, the MCC staff aren't co-operating with investigators, so we're not getting information one way or the other in that regard.


Most likely because they knew he was not suicidal.


What?


So when will you?
As stated, let them do an investigation and see what they find. But whatever they find, you already have your mind made up.
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
Possibly, am not sure a suspected child sex slave trafficker is someone whose word I would choose to believe without corroboration.
He was pretty open about his doings from what I can tell, so there's no indication that dishonesty was part and parcel of his wrongdoing, which means that you are making up excuses for the fact that you don't want to consider evidence contrary to your favoured conclusion (suicide).
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
As stated, let them do an investigation and see what they find. But whatever they find, you already have your mind made up.
Yes, my mind is made up that the investigation itself is going to be unreliable because of the fact that the people involved refuse to co-operate. And frankly, if I was the coroner in that situation I would probably also claim it's a suicide when there was evidence it was murder simply because I don't want to get offed for blowing the whistle because clearly these people could get to anyone.

People who want to think that it's suicide are entitled to their opinion, but if they should use their opinion as an excuse to browbeat people with a contrary opinion then frankly their idiocy deserves to be exposed and laughed at.
 

STS

Mafia Detective
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
31,849
Yes, my mind is made up that the investigation itself is going to be unreliable because of the fact that the people involved refuse to co-operate. And frankly, if I was the coroner in that situation I would probably also claim it's a suicide when there was evidence it was murder simply because I don't want to get offed for blowing the whistle because clearly these people could get to anyone.

People who want to think that it's suicide are entitled to their opinion, but if they should use their opinion as an excuse to browbeat people with a contrary opinion then frankly their idiocy deserves to be exposed and laughed at.
Some opinions weigh more than others, usually when they are backed by logic and facts
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
Some opinions weigh more than others, usually when they are backed by logic and facts
Yes, your position isn't backed by logic and facts, its backed by irrational partisanship, hence the problem which is so easy to make fun of whenever it presents itself.
 

STS

Mafia Detective
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
31,849
Yes, your position isn't backed by logic and facts, its backed by irrational partisanship, hence the problem which is so easy to make fun of whenever it presents itself.
As I said, your mind is made up. You have already determined the cause of death, who the murderers are and the reason for the murder
 

Gingerbeardman

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2018
Messages
5,472
As I said, your mind is made up. You have already determined the cause of death, who the murderers are and the reason for the murder
As far as the reason and the cause, you're right, my mind is pretty made up. As far as the who, no, that is not settled, but the fact that you think it is does a lot to explain the inane quality of your posts.
 
Top