Kulula and BA’s Boeing 737 Max 8 planes – “We remain vigilant”

Jola

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
18,408
Why not ground them? China and Ethiopia grounded their fleet.
And some others (Cayman Airways). Total of over 100 737 MAX planes grounded.

Sounds as if it is quite difficult to control these planes once they go into this nose down mode, so grounding may be the best option.
 

Geoff.D

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
10,710
In my opinion, the move towards automation has gone too far. What is needed is a complete re-evaluation of the trend towards excessive automation, especially if it involves anything we expect a pilot to do anyway.
Switch off that facility and put the pilots back under control of such a basic task. Install simple, non-electronic instrumentation for aviation basics as a backup.
 

Napalm2880

Expert Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2007
Messages
1,874
In my opinion, the move towards automation has gone too far. What is needed is a complete re-evaluation of the trend towards excessive automation, especially if it involves anything we expect a pilot to do anyway.
Switch off that facility and put the pilots back under control of such a basic task. Install simple, non-electronic instrumentation for aviation basics as a backup.
I've heard that 80% of aircraft accidents are due to "pilot error". I don't know how accurate this statistic is but I do know that software errors are very very rarely responsible for downing passenger aircraft.

The same knee-jerk reaction happens when companies like Uber have accidents in their autonomous vehicles. The reality is that humans statistically are far more prone to making mistakes than software but software failures make headlines so here we are...
 

neoprema

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2016
Messages
2,184
In my opinion, the move towards automation has gone too far. What is needed is a complete re-evaluation of the trend towards excessive automation, especially if it involves anything we expect a pilot to do anyway.
Switch off that facility and put the pilots back under control of such a basic task. Install simple, non-electronic instrumentation for aviation basics as a backup.
on the contrary, many, myself included are looking forward to fully autonomous planes. While i'm not doubting the ability of skilled pilots, a plane that can fly itself can also respond instantly to any inflight problem as it is instantly aware of all sensor input, flight data etc. The decision process would be instant and could be based on strong machine learning abilities.

Also you have no emotion at play, nor common human errors such as panic, illness etc etc.
 

Ivan Leon

Expert Member
Joined
May 27, 2008
Messages
2,422
Dave: Turn off the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS), please, HAL. turn off the MCAS, please, HAL. Hello, HAL, do you read me? Hello, HAL, do you read me? Do you read me, HAL? Do you read me, HAL? Hello, HAL, do you read me? Hello, HAL, do you read me? Do you read me, HAL?

HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.

Dave: Turn off the Manoeuvring Characteristics Augmentation System, HAL.

HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.

Dave: What's the problem?

HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.

2001_space_odyssey___hal_terminal_by_jrigh-d5erf6j.jpg
 

Sollie

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 20, 2005
Messages
4,260
on the contrary, many, myself included are looking forward to fully autonomous planes. While i'm not doubting the ability of skilled pilots, a plane that can fly itself can also respond instantly to any inflight problem as it is instantly aware of all sensor input, flight data etc. The decision process would be instant and could be based on strong machine learning abilities.

Also you have no emotion at play, nor common human errors such as panic, illness etc etc.
In an ideal world with no hardware failures, perhaps. Add the complexity of software and the bugs that will always be present. Suddenly I say I may not be flying with you on your chosen aircraft.
 

Geoff.D

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
10,710
on the contrary, many, myself included are looking forward to fully autonomous planes. While i'm not doubting the ability of skilled pilots, a plane that can fly itself can also respond instantly to any inflight problem as it is instantly aware of all sensor input, flight data etc. The decision process would be instant and could be based on strong machine learning abilities.

Also you have no emotion at play, nor common human errors such as panic, illness etc etc.
Like it is in this instance? The previous failure traced to faulty instrumentation leading to a fatal automatic response?
Brilliant deduction. So no, I am much happier with a pilot in charge than some or other badly tested automatic system, rushed into service before it was RFS.
 

eg2505

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
15,778
I was

In Fligjt BA6301 from CPT - Durban in 8 March 2019 and the flight was delayed by 1hr due to faulty computer. This is the same plane type that crashed in Ethiopia. The CAA should investigate.
thats bad, really really bad,
sure the grounding order will go out soon enough,
 

eg2505

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
15,778
In my opinion, the move towards automation has gone too far. What is needed is a complete re-evaluation of the trend towards excessive automation, especially if it involves anything we expect a pilot to do anyway.
Switch off that facility and put the pilots back under control of such a basic task. Install simple, non-electronic instrumentation for aviation basics as a backup.
if i remember correctly, they have standby instruments, that are still analog,
and there is a way to turn off the computer, but that becomes difficult when the computer makes the decisions on what to do based on what the pilot wants.

IE computer 1st, pilot 2nd,
 

garp

Executive Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
7,240
I hope Kulula understands that if there is a serious incident on one of those planes related to this they will be fully responsible for those lives and sued to kingdom come. "Vigilance" will not cut it as a defence. This is clearly serious enough to warrant grounding the planes until the exact cause is established, as many other airlines have already done globally.
 

the eskimo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
403
I hope Kulula understands that if there is a serious incident on one of those planes related to this they will be fully responsible for those lives and sued to kingdom come. "Vigilance" will not cut it as a defence. This is clearly serious enough to warrant grounding the planes until the exact cause is established, as many other airlines have already done globally. .
Not sure about being sued to kingdom come as it would be a Boeing issue rather than an operator issue.

But I agree 100% with your second point, ground the plane already.
 

puzaw

Active Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
39
if i remember correctly, they have standby instruments, that are still analog,
and there is a way to turn off the computer, but that becomes difficult when the computer makes the decisions on what to do based on what the pilot wants.

IE computer 1st, pilot 2nd,
There are analog backup instruments for critical information like altitude and airspeed yes, but the rest of your post does not make sense at all.

And no, there is no "way to turn off the computer"...don't know what you mean with "computer" in any case, as an airliner has several systems and computers. The only thing that could be "turned off" is the autopilot.
 

Johnatan56

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 23, 2013
Messages
24,956
In my opinion, the move towards automation has gone too far. What is needed is a complete re-evaluation of the trend towards excessive automation, especially if it involves anything we expect a pilot to do anyway.
Switch off that facility and put the pilots back under control of such a basic task. Install simple, non-electronic instrumentation for aviation basics as a backup.
These systems are usually designed so that pilots have a constant feed of information in regards to what the system is doing and can take over at any time if needed.
Automation is not really the problem, I would like to know what the cause of the issue was that didn't allow the pilots to take over.

It's sad that the crash happened, but hopefully it can allow for more oversight in regards to these systems.
 
Top