KZN rugby player shot dead by cops in Hawaii

[supersunbird]

It's night time. Suddenly I come up on you pointing a bright light and gun in your face. I tell you to get down. You're from a country where people will kill you for a few cents in your pocket. You charge and start punching me, so I taser you while telling you repeatedly to stop, but you are fighting for your life so you don't stop, especially since you realise I have a gun. Since you won't stop, my friend goes for a lethal shot even though he could have aimed for a non-lethal one.

You didn't or couldn't see I was a cop during the whole altercation.

Did you deserve to die?

My point is that well-trained cops wouldn't have even gotten themselves in that situation. But cops that go from zero to licensed to kill in 6 months do. Even if they have 20 years of experience, if they've never been taught how to de-escalate situations, they'll do what they always do.

In SA and elsewhere such a criminal will shout "give me your phone/money/wallet/whatever", not shout "get down on the ground".

 

[Cray]

This source has a much clearer video - ~20seconds in:

GRAPHIC: HPD releases body cam footage of police shooting in Nuuanu that left man dead

The footage shows two responding officers didn’t identify themselves as police until after shots were fired. HPD said it was clear who they were.

www.hawaiinewsnow.com

The torch was not in his eyes. Anything else is speculation

So are we not allowed to speculate about why a man with zero criminal record might have done what he did? Am not saying it's a definitive account, am giving possible reasons for why he may have acted the way he did.

. Perhaps he heard about the evil cops in the news, that's why he went there ... so do we start blaming MSM for it as well?

But yeah, lets not speculate....

 

[Cray]

In my opinion they had no time to announce themselves, however I am 100% sure he knew they were cops. That is the only way to explain his behaviour.

Well this is clearly where your idea of human behaviour and mine diverge, for me the only way to explain his behaviour is if he didn't know they where cops... This is a man with no prior criminal history and a young family, what possible reason would he have to attack policeman?

 

[Cray]

I don't think they had time to announce themselves.

Why, he wasn't attacking anyone, there was no immediate threat? How hard is it to say..." Police, get on the ground" ?

 

[Cray]

You know they gave him verbal commands to stop and get down. When that failed and while they were getting punched they tried tasering him. When that failed and while getting punched some more and getting knocked out, they shot him.

If someone doesn't know you are a cop, why would the respond to verbal commands being issued by someone threatening you with a gun?

 

[Cray]

Absolutely yes, without a shadow of a doubt.

If you attack people with your fists when you know they have guns already aimed at you ... exactly WTF do you expect the outcome to be?!? That level of stupidity deserves to be removed from the gene pool.

Have you ever had someone you didn't know point a gun at you? it's easy to judge what people do in stressful situations from your comfy chair...

 

[zolly]

To other officers it could look like a dead cop, but sure during all the action, take your time and aim for a nice non-lethal spot while he continues to attack everyone.

This is exactly my point. A well trained policeman would do exactly that. But we're not dealing with well trained cops.

II. Training

Abolishing a police force is one challenge. Replacing it with something better is another.

Key to that challenge is revamping the training for prospective officers. Here, too, the U.S. can look to other countries for inspiration. In Germany, for example, police recruits are required to spend two and a half to four years in basic training to become an officer, with the option to pursue the equivalent of a bachelor’s or master’s degree in policing. Basic training in the U.S., by comparison, can take as little as 21 weeks (or 33.5 weeks, with field training). The less time recruits have to train, the less time is afforded for guidance on crisis intervention or de-escalation. “If you only have 21 weeks of classroom training, naturally you’re going to emphasize survival,” Paul Hirschfield, an associate sociology and criminal-justice professor at Rutgers University, told me.

Joachim Kersten, a senior research professor of criminology at the German Police University, told me that police training in Germany covers everything from how to respond to cases of domestic violence to how to disarm someone with a lethal weapon. In the latter case, he said, “the emphasis is not on using weapons or shooting.” Rather, trainees are encouraged to de-escalate, resorting to lethal force only when absolutely necessary.

This level of restraint isn’t unique to Germany—it’s a Europe-wide standard. In some European countries, the rules are stricter still: Police in Finland and Norway, for example, require that officers seek permission before shooting anyone, where possible. In Spain, police must provide verbal cautions and warning shots before resorting to deadly force. Even in circumstances where weapons aren’t used, police officers in Europe tend to be more restricted in what they can do. Chokeholds of the kind used to immobilize, and ultimately kill, Floyd are forbidden in much of Europe. Some parts of the U.S., including Minneapolis, California, and New York, have since banned chokeholds and other similar restraints as well.

“If you change the rules of engagement,” Hirschfield said, “if you make it more difficult to use deadly force, legally and through training, then police departments need to adapt” their tactics.

Part of the reason that police in Europe are loath to use lethal force is because in most scenarios, they don’t have to. Compared with the U.S., which claims 40 percent of the world’s firearms, gun ownership in most European countries is relatively rare. In Germany, “officers, with few exceptions in big cities, don’t have to expect that they will meet people who will shoot at them,” Kersten said. Indeed, a number of police officers in countries such as Britain, Ireland, and Norway aren’t armed at all.

Tracey L. Meares and Tom R. Tyler: The first step is figuring out what police are for

This is perhaps why police-related deaths tend to be more prevalent in the U.S. than in many of its peer nations. Last year, the U.S. recorded more than 1,000 killings by law enforcement, dwarfing the number of police-related deaths in Canada, with 36 in 2017; Germany, with 14 that year; and England and Wales, with three in 2018. (Scotland and Northern Ireland have their own police forces.) “There is a massive difference in the level of harm that police do in carrying out their duties in a society that, to begin with, has far more guns than Britain could ever imagine,” Lawrence Sherman, a director of Cambridge University’s Centre for Evidence-Based Policing, told me. “It creates a very different starting point.”

What the World Could Teach America About Policing

Examples abound of reforms that are seen as “radical” in the United States.

www.theatlantic.com

This piece touches on the threat of deadly force due to the prevalence of guns, but I'm also of the opinion that most Americans don't need to be heavily armed the way we need to be. It's actually surprising that more people in SA don't carry guns, considering the levels of violence we have to deal with compared to the Yanks.

 

[GrootVoet]

Did I miss something like new video evidence showing him not attacking the police even after been taser'ed?

 

[stoymigo]

Did I miss something like new video evidence showing him not attacking the police even after been taser'ed?

apparently he mistake the place for a nearby temple, for me its definitely new info

 

[ForceFate]

Have you ever had someone you didn't know point a gun at you? it's easy to judge what people do in stressful situations from your comfy chair...

My bro and cousin once took on 8 armed thugs at once. They lost badly but asked why they fought, they reckon the thugs were going to shoot them anyway if the guns were loaded so why not fight their way out?

 

[Mephisto_Helix]

Guns on you from cops or savages has most people comply. That tiny % that doesn't is either full of stories, nuts or extremely well trained.

 

[airborne]

When you are in a dark area and someone shines a bright light in your direction, it doesn't have to be directly into your eyes, your eyes immediately compensate for the bright light by constricting your pupils, you instantly get temporary night blindness.

Seeing how the situation escalated immediately Lindani wouldn't have had a clue who he was dealing with, in terms of being able to actually identify them with his own eyes.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Have you ever had someone you didn't know point a gun at you? it's easy to judge what people do in stressful situations from your comfy chair...

yes actually, and per my self defense training I made no sudden movements and complied ABSOLUTELY with their every demand until I could identify who it was, how many of them there were and how well armed they were

turned out to be a very poor taste practical joke, but in the moment I had no clue that is what it was

attacking anything or anyone without first assessing the threat they pose to you is reckless and stupid

... then, again, factor in the fact that he knew the police had been called

 

[TelkomUseless]

It's night time. Suddenly I come up on you pointing a bright light and gun in your face. I tell you to get down. You're from a country where people will kill you for a few cents in your pocket. You charge and start punching me, so I taser you while telling you repeatedly to stop, but you are fighting for your life so you don't stop, especially since you realise I have a gun. Since you won't stop, my friend goes for a lethal shot even though he could have aimed for a non-lethal one.

You didn't or couldn't see I was a cop during the whole altercation.

Did you deserve to die?

My point is that well-trained cops wouldn't have even gotten themselves in that situation. But cops that go from zero to licensed to kill in 6 months do. Even if they have 20 years of experience, if they've never been taught how to de-escalate situations, they'll do what they always do.

Watching the video.. he hangs around uninvited after seeing his in the wrong place (and ask to see the phone?). And the house people are freaking out. Yet.. he stays in the house , walks out and hang chill in the yard.

Then he attacks people telling him to get down. He is trespassing, on unknown property ... and goes on a fighting spree. Why not just leave the property (quickly)?

 

[skimread]

When you are in a dark area and someone shines a bright light in your direction, it doesn't have to be directly into your eyes, your eyes immediately compensate for the bright light by constricting your pupils, you instantly get temporary night blindness.

Seeing how the situation escalated immediately Lindani wouldn't have had a clue who he was dealing with, in terms of being able to actually identify them with his own eyes.

His punches were accurate though and he was able to floor all 3 officers so the flashlight as a blinding technique wasn't very good. Ironic how a flashlight is so effective but a tazer which is designed to be effective isn't?

Looking at ring doorbell cam he was standing at the door listening how she made the call to the police that it was a break in. If I was him, the moment I heard her being on the phone police, even though false, I would know the circumstances is not in my favour. In this situation he was unlucky the police arrived very quickly.

The time he listened to the telephone call combined with him reacting to confrontation with violence lead to his death. In that situation of knowing the police are coming most people would be one of two things
- submissive and calm
- or be full of energy and bolt after hearing her on the phone with the police.

He was the wrong combo of these two things. Calm(apologetic) and full of energy (fighting)

 

[skimread]

He was wearing a warrior headband. I never see people wearing a umqhele in shops. Why would you at the opposite side of the world wear it as your daily headwear?
Zulus are polygamous so maybe he fancied the Asian chick. He told his wife he is coming home 5 minutes earlier so lied to her. He followed a Chinese woman home, took off his shoes while she looked and him, got inside and told her his name is Linden from South Africa.

Oh what is that you are wearing?
This is what people wear where I am from.
Oh that is so interesting culture. Can I take a picture with you for my instagram?
Sure, tell me what your Instagram is and I will follow you.

Like I go to the other side of the world walking around to unknown neighbours with a packet of biltong, telling people this is what we eat daily where I am from while wearing kaki with a comb sticking out from my socks.

He watched pornos and thought Americans all have casual sex. His wife just had a baby so wouldn't be in the mood and he has all the extra energy to exert, so he put on his Zulu warrior headband and went hunting. Everyone knows a normal friendly animal in musth can be very dangerous.

 

[TelkomUseless]

He was wearing a warrior headband. I never see people wearing a umqhele in shops. Why would you at the opposite side of the world wear it as your daily headwear?
Zulus are polygamous so maybe he fancied the Asian chick. He told his wife he is coming home 5 minutes earlier so lied to her. He followed a women home, took off his shoes and told her his name is Linden from South Africa whille but didn't get the response he wanted.

Oh what is that you are wearing?
This is what people wear where I am from.
Oh that is so interesting culture. Can I take a picture with you for my instagram?
Sure, tell me what your Instagram is and I will follow you.


Like I go to the other side of the world walking around to unknown neighbours with a packet of biltong telling people this is what we eat daily where I am from wearing kaki with a comb sticking out from my socks.

The news reporter did ask (and nobody confirmed) that he might have been visiting that residence before. A lot of people come and go there and he might have been looking for someone.

 

[Cray]

My bro and cousin once took on 8 armed thugs at once. They lost badly but asked why they fought, they reckon the thugs were going to shoot them anyway if the guns were loaded so why not fight their way out?

Yeah, I mean if you come to the conclusion that people are going to shoot you, rushing them at least gives you a fighting chance... Not sure I would be able to do it but it's not as stupid as all that *if* you think you are going to get shot anyway.

 

[skimread]

The news reporter did ask (and nobody confirmed) that he might have been visiting that residence before. A lot of people come and go there and he might have been looking for someone.

Do you think his skelmpie is going to come forward destroying his wife and children's perfect image of him? They will stick to the temple narrative.

 

[TelkomUseless]

Do you think his skelmpie is going to come forward destroying his wife and children's perfect image of him? They will stick to the temple narrative.

Yip.. I do agree.