Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine!

[Polymathic]

I believe this video was taken two days ago. This is also interesting

[video=youtube;9ff_LTlZZI8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ff_LTlZZI8[/video]

Regarding the previous taped phone calls, rebels have admitted that it was them talking but they claim that they were talking about another plane 100Kms away. So it does seem that Ukraine has the ability to intercept their communication.

Here is the rebels admittance that the voices are authentic: http://lenta.ru/news/2014/07/18/bezler/

I think it's time the UN take over, treaties have been broken

 

[Arthur]

Security Council Chapter 7 actions are possible only with agreement of all permanent members. Russia would veto any such resolution, and everyone knows it.

 

[AthenianOwl]

Security Council Chapter 7 actions are possible only with agreement of all permanent members. Russia would veto any such resolution, and everyone knows it.

UNSC is a fsuking joke! Putin knows it! Everybody knows it. We know it. We will never find the bodies nor the black box. At least we know that the fsuking rebels are the ones who fired at the civilian plane. Just send a SEAL team to exterminate these worthless O2 theiving scumbags. I bet Russia will abandon them in a heartbeat when it happens. I would pay to watch them die. Obama, you better don't disappoint us again this time. Putin can't get away with it. It's literally a WAR CRIME!

 

[Arthur]

The black boxes aren't really needed. Ideal would be missile parts/fragments in wreckage to confirm the suspicion that SAM-11 was used. The real work is in intel.

 

[Unhappy438]

Security Council Chapter 7 actions are possible only with agreement of all permanent members. Russia would veto any such resolution, and everyone knows it.

Yup, NATO would have to launch some kind of operation and thats not going to happen.

The black boxes aren't really needed. Ideal would be missile parts/fragments in wreckage to confirm the suspicion that SAM-11 was used. The real work is in intel.

The black boxes are very important, sure you can tell if a missile hit the craft from the wreckage but the boxes could also hold clues themselves.

 

[AthenianOwl]

The black boxes aren't really needed. Ideal would be missile parts/fragments in wreckage to confirm the suspicion that SAM-11 was used. The real work is in intel.

They are needed so badly by the independent investigators. After the plane crashed, they were recovered quickly by the rebels from the site in less than 48 hours.

 

[Arthur]

They're not needed to tell MH17 was brought down by a missile. And in any case they can't provide any hard evidence of that, but only of catastrophic mechanical failure. The missile evidence lies in the wreckage, and IDing the perps is the work of intelligence and police agencies. Bringing them to book is a challenge.

 

[Mortymoose]

If Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, were to invite NATO onto their territory to help them with the uprising in the east, no laws would be broken, nobody invaded, then surely using all power available and with much haste, they could crush the rebels before the Russians had time to help defend them, and besides the rebels would have no legal grounds to invite the Russians to help them, seeing as the east is legally part of the Greater Ukraine, in fact the west should have moved quicker on The Crimea and crushed this precedent from happening, it's like the Nazi's all over again....

 

[Unhappy438]

If Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, were to invite NATO onto their territory to help them with the uprising in the east, no laws would be broken, nobody invaded, then surely using all power available and with much haste, they could crush the rebels before the Russians had time to help defend them, and besides the rebels would have no legal grounds to invite the Russians to help them, seeing as the east is legally part of the Greater Ukraine, in fact the west should have moved quicker on The Crimea and crushed this precedent from happening, it's like the Nazi's all over again....

I can say that if this happened it would cause extreme problems as the Kremlin doesn't see things this way. It would be similar to Russia dropping troops in Syria and claiming Assad asked for this assistance and legally its his land and not the rebels. Of course there are differences in the uprisings as the one in Ukraine is almost purely Russian created but that makes no difference to the Russians.

 

[Unhappy438]

MH17: 'Pariah Putin' faces new sanctions within days

David Cameron is close to securing tougher sanctions against Russia following the downing of flight MH17 after speaking to Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande.
Both Mrs Merkel, the German Chancellor, and Mr Hollande, the French President, agreed that the EU must reconsider its approach and be prepared to impose further sanctions on Tuesday.
The conversations mark a significant change in their approach after Mr Cameron warned that the world must "turn this moment of outrage into a moment of action.
On Wednesday this week, before Flight MH17, Mr Cameron attended a summit in Brussels where European leaders failed to agree on imposing further sanctions.
In this morning's conversations, the three leaders also agreed that securing access to the crash site for investigators is an "immediate priority".

A Downing Street spokesman said: "All three leaders agreed that the immediate priority is to secure access to the crash site and to ensure that specialist teams are able to recover the victims and return them home.
"They agreed President Putin has an important role to play by persuading the separatists to grant access and to work with the international community to ensure that all that needs to be done can be done as soon as possible."
It came as Philip Hammond, the new Foreign Secretary, warned that Russia risks becoming a "pariah state" if it continues to ignore the international community.
Mr Hammond said that the "eyes of the world" are on Vladimir Putin as he called on him to allow access to the crash site and stop supporting rebel fighters.
He said that Britain has reached the "unavoidable conclusion" that the missile which shot down Flight MH17 was from Russia.
He also suggested that the separatists who operated the missile launcher may have been trained by Russians.
He said: “The eyes of world … are on Vladimir Putin. And what we’re seeing from the Russians is obfuscation and obstruction at the moment.
"The Russians will have probably more information about this incident than anyone. They’re very close by. It’s only a few miles from the Russian border. They’ve got lots of military presence in the area. They are saying nothing.
"What we need is full Russian cooperation. Any evidence that they control needs to be turned over to the international investigators. They must use their influence to allow international access to the site to secure the evidence and secure respect for the bodies and the possessions of the victims."
He added that Britain believes that there is still vital forensic evidence at the scene, but that every day that investigators are denied access to the crash site makes it "more difficult to piece together the picture".
He said: "It has been impossible to get agreed access to the site by the parties that control it. Unless you want to fight your way in you have got to negotiate with the people who control the site on the ground. There is one party in the world who clearly has the ability to snap his fingers and it would be done. That is Vladimir Putin. For all the fine words we are hearing from Moscow it hasn't happened."
Mr Hammond said that Britain should be prepared to go ahead with financial sanctions even if they have a damaging effect on the City of London.
He said: "Of course we should be prepared to accept as part of comprehensive sanctions measures that will impact on London."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ah-Putin-faces-new-sanctions-within-days.html

 

[Arthur]

If Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, were to invite NATO onto their territory to help them with the uprising in the east, no laws would be broken, nobody invaded, then surely using all power available and with much haste, they could crush the rebels before the Russians had time to help defend them, and besides the rebels would have no legal grounds to invite the Russians to help them, seeing as the east is legally part of the Greater Ukraine, in fact the west should have moved quicker on The Crimea and crushed this precedent from happening, it's like the Nazi's all over again....

Interesting point, Morty.

It's admittedly many years since I did Public International Law under John Dugard, but a central principle is that of uti possidetis. It was formally adopted by most international bodies after WW2. The OAU (now AU) wrote uti possidetis into its charter precisely to preserve the territorial integrity of the newly-decolonised states because it prevents belligerents from acquiring territory by force of arms. Russia's annexation of Crimea and its backing of the rebels in east Ukraine is in direct violation of that principle.

The Big Question is, do the Western powers have the balls to call Russia to account on this fundamental plank of the international order, or are they too far decayed into wimpishness to do anything but protest and appease? I suspect the latter.

 

[chrisc]

Interesting point, Morty.

The Big Question is, do the Western powers have the balls to call Russia to account on this fundamental plank of the international order, or are they too far decayed into wimpishness to do anything but protest and appease? I suspect the latter.

No, they are just a bunch of windbags

 

[JustAsk]

Hmm...classic USA operation.

Creating a certain set of circumstances to get your target to react in a certain way, giving you the needed excuse to a planned reaction.

There was a il-76 from Ukrain military in that region, the same time and it was at a time very close to mh17. The il-76 has the same radar echo as the mh17.

The convenient evidence:
* Pics of buk,apparently taken by Ukrain spy - taken roughly 2 hours before event - shows 4 missiles
* so called amature video of buk driving to the area from where it was shot
* another video taken by Ukrain spy, of buk fleeing the scene after shot
* various "eye witness" saw buk with 2 missiles missing
* very nice audio intercept by Ukrain militay

Do i believe this evidence? Most of it is probably true, but what is important is the convenience of it all,the spy perfectly placed as if he was waiting for certain schit to happen, the eye witnesses (released by Ukrain intelligence) that just happens to be noticing the 2 missiles missing and the audio transcript with just the right evidence. If you want to push a certain agenda,this is the type of evidence you'll need.

I believe that il-76 was just used to plant the radar echo and putting the rebels on alert..the bait.That mh17 was diverted to fly that area...effectively coming into war territory with the same radar echo tracked by rebels...the switch. The stage was set for a tragedy to happen.

Now Russia is blamed and the evidence is "water tight" and the USA has the excuse to do whatever the fck they planned to do.

 

[Mortymoose]

Interesting point, Morty.

It's admittedly many years since I did Public International Law under John Dugard, but a central principle is that of uti possidetis. It was formally adopted by most international bodies after WW2. The OAU (now AU) wrote uti possidetis into its charter precisely to preserve the territorial integrity of the newly-decolonised states because it prevents belligerents from acquiring territory by force of arms. Russia's annexation of Crimea and its backing of the rebels in east Ukraine is in direct violation of that principle.

The Big Question is, do the Western powers have the balls to call Russia to account on this fundamental plank of the international order, or are they too far decayed into wimpishness to do anything but protest and appease? I suspect the latter.

The problem being, that as the older politicians, soldiers die out from old age, the youth forget what ww2 was all about, in this sense the European Nations have become to liberal in their way of thinking, this way of thinking will indeed become their own undoing one day, after all the Romans did it, many a civilization and empire has, too liberal for their own good....

The moment Putin moved into The Crimea, there should have been a response from Western Nations, not a vote, not an emergency session, not a demand, but a physical response...

 

[Unhappy438]

Hmm...classic USA operation.

Creating a certain set of circumstances to get your target to react in a certain way, giving you the needed excuse to a planned reaction.

There was a il-76 from Ukrain military in that region, the same time and it was at a time very close to mh17. The il-76 has the same radar echo as the mh17.

The convenient evidence:
* Pics of buk,apparently taken by Ukrain spy - taken roughly 2 hours before event - shows 4 missiles
* so called amature video of buk driving to the area from where it was shot
* another video taken by Ukrain spy, of buk fleeing the scene after shot
* various "eye witness" saw buk with 2 missiles missing
* very nice audio intercept by Ukrain militay

Do i believe this evidence? Most of it is probably true, but what is important is the convenience of it all,the spy perfectly placed as if he was waiting for certain schit to happen, the eye witnesses (released by Ukrain intelligence) that just happens to be noticing the 2 missiles missing and the audio transcript with just the right evidence. If you want to push a certain agenda,this is the type of evidence you'll need.

I believe that il-76 was just used to plant the radar echo and putting the rebels on alert..the bait.That mh17 was diverted to fly that area...effectively coming into war territory with the same radar echo tracked by rebels...the switch. The stage was set for a tragedy to happen.

Now Russia is blamed and the evidence is "water tight" and the USA has the excuse to do whatever the fck they planned to do.

What spy are you talking about? The video is open source, taken by a resident living in the apartment block in Snizhne. The AP reporter is also not a spy and the area is rebel controlled.

 

[Mortymoose]

What spy are you talking about? The video is open source, taken by a resident living in the apartment block in Snizhne. The AP reporter is also not a spy and the area is rebel controlled.

I agree, I use to enjoy watching RT, gee! Don't they just hate the Yanks, I am no fan of theirs by any means, but the absoloute hatred displayed by the RT journo's , you cannot compare, no wonder real journalists with morals keep resigning citing the same reason, the only problem with the Russians, they are still trying to decieve the masses in the same manner as they did forty years ago...... The world has moved on Vladi.....

 

[scudsucker]

Hmm...classic USA operation.

"Never debate with an educated fool..."

I'll have to start this with the suggestion you have no education, because the twaddle you are peddling is insane and foolish.

 

[Mortymoose]

On another point, if all those rebels wish to be Russian then feckin move to Russia, like I continually tell narrow minded dutchman up here, that keep bitching about Taci's and other various native affairs, "Boet, this is Africa, if you want to be European, then feck pff back to Holland!"

 

[Alan]

I'll have to start this with the suggestion you have no education, because the twaddle you are peddling is insane and foolish.

Noam Chomsky would be impressed. David Icke not so much

 

[JustAsk]

What spy are you talking about? The video is open source, taken by a resident living in the apartment block in Snizhne. The AP reporter is also not a spy and the area is rebel controlled.

Foto’s wat vermoedelik deur ’n Oekraïnse spioen geneem is, toon duidelik ’n Buk-stelsel waar dit in ’n woonbuurt van Torez, wat deur die rebelle beheer word, weggesteek staan.

Nóg ’n amateur-video-opname wys hoe die logge lanseerder kort voor die voorval in die rigting van ’n bekende defensiewe stelling van die rebelle beweeg – die vermeende plek vanwaar die missiel(e) afgevuur is.

’n Verdere video-opname deur nóg ’n Oekraïnse spioen wys hoe die lanseerder – dié keer op ’n vragmotor om vinniger te kan beweeg – haastig van die stelling af wegbeweeg in ’n suidelike rigting na die Russiese grens nadat die Boeing neergeskiet is.

Verskillende ooggetuieverslae wat deur die Oekraïnse veiligheidsdepartement uitgereik is, meld dat die lanseerder minus minstens een, maar moontlik twee van die vier missiele was.

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