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Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine!
- Thread starter Dave
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Btw why "separatists" and not "rebels" or "freedom fighters"?
LazyLion
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It's just a more correct technical term describing a people who actually want to secede from a country, not liberate it.
LazyLion
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TRAIN WITH PLANE CRASH BODIES LEAVES REBEL TOWN
By DMITRY LOVETSKY and DAVID McHUGH
Associated Press
A refrigerated train carrying Malaysia Airlines victims' bodies pulled away Monday from a rebel-held town in eastern Ukraine, one small step forward in easing the agony of their grieving families.
In an emotional inspection hours earlier, Dutch experts had called for a full forensic sweep of the Flight 17 crash site and told the armed separatists controlling the area that the train must be allowed to leave as soon as possible.
Four days after someone shot the Boeing 777 out of the sky, killing 298 people, pressure was growing on Russian President Vladimir Putin to rein in the insurgents and allow a full-scale investigation into the downing of the plane. The U.S., Ukraine and others say Moscow has armed the rebels, a charge Russia denies.
In Washington, President Barack Obama demanded that international investigators get full access to the crash site and accused the separatists of removing evidence and blocking investigators.
"What exactly are they trying to hide?" Obama asked, a day after the U.S. presented what it called "powerful" evidence that the rebels had shot down the plane with a Russian surface-to-air missile.
A team of international observers at the crash site suggested that some of the evidence may have been tampered with.
At the biggest of the incident sites on Monday, "we did not see any perimeter security in the place," OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw told reporters in Donetsk. The monitors observed that one of the largest pieces of debris "had somewhat been split or moved apart."
On an earlier visit to one of the smaller impact sites observers had also witnessed apparent tampering. "When we were leaving, we observed workers there hacking into the fuselage with gas-powered equipment," Bociurkiw said.
At the U.N. in New York, the Security Council was voting later Monday on an Australia-proposed resolution demanding international access to the crash site and a cease-fire around the area. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said his country would view a Russian veto of the resolution "very badly," adding that "no reasonable person" could object to its wording.
Fighting flared again between the separatists and government troops in the eastern rebel-held city of Donetsk, just 50 kilometers (30 miles) to the west of the crash site. City authorities said battles took place Monday near the town's airport. An AP reporter heard several explosions and saw smoke rising from that direction.
After the train with the bodies left the town of Torez, two military jets also flew overhead and black smoke was seen rising in the distance.
Fighting began in mid-April in eastern Ukraine after Russia annexed Ukraine's southern Crimean Peninsula a month earlier.
There is great concern in the Netherlands about the bodies, since 192 of the plane's 298 victims were Dutch and another was Dutch-American. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said Monday that repatriating the bodies was his "No. 1 priority."
An Associated Press reporter saw the train with the bodies leaving Torez, a rebel-held town 15 kilometers (9 miles) from the plane crash site, and overheard rebels saying it was heading for the rebel-held town of Ilovaysk. The Ukrainian government later said the train was eventually heading to a crisis center in the government-controlled eastern city of Kharkiv.
In farm fields near the eastern village of Hrabove, Peter van Vliet, leader of the group from the Dutch National Forensic Investigations Team visiting Ukraine, said seeing the crash site gave him goose bumps despite the heat. Workers recovered more bodies from the site Monday, bringing the total to 282 bodies, according to Volodymyr Groisman, Ukraine's deputy prime minister.
The Dutch team - which specializes in victim recovery and identification - saw some victims' remains still rotting in the fields of the crash site. They also inspected piles of passenger luggage, suggesting that they be put in a container and shipped out.
At the Torez train station, the Dutch investigators stood for a moment with their heads bowed and their hands clasped before climbing aboard to inspect the train cars, surrounded by armed rebels.
AP journalists said the smell of decay was overwhelming at the Torez train station and many with the inspectors wore masks or pressed cloths to their faces on the sunny, 84 degree Fahrenheit (29 degrees Celsius) day. A Ukrainian train engineer told The Associated Press that a power outage had hit the rail cars' refrigeration system for several hours overnight.
In Kharkiv, another team of international experts arrived, including 23 Dutch, three Australians, two Germans, two Americans, and one person from the U.K.
Malaysia's prime minister said the rebels agreed to hand over both black boxes from Flight 17 to Malaysian investigators in Ukraine later Monday.
The U.S. evidence that the rebels were involved in downing the plan included video of a rocket launcher, one surface-to-air missile missing, leaving the likely launch site; imagery showing the firing; phone calls claiming credit for the missile strike and phone recordings said to reveal a cover-up at the crash site.
"A buildup of extraordinary circumstantial evidence ... it's powerful here," said U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. "Russia is supporting these separatists. Russia is arming these separatists. Russia is training these separatists."
Putin lashed out against the criticism Monday, accusing others of exploiting the downing of the plane for "mercenary objectives."
Putin said Russia was doing everything possible to allow a team of experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization, a U.N. agency, to investigate the scene. He again criticized Ukrainian government authorities in Kiev, saying they had reignited the fighting with the rebels after a unilateral cease-fire expired without progress on peace talks.
"If fighting in eastern Ukraine had not been renewed on June 28, this tragedy would not have happened," Putin said. "Nobody should or does have a right to use this tragedy for such mercenary objectives."
The head of counterintelligence for Ukraine's SBU security service, Vitaliy Najda, has said the Buk missile launchers came from Russia and called on Russia to supply the names of the service personnel "who brought about the launch of the missile" so they could be questioned. He said the rebels could not have operated the sophisticated weapon without Russian help but did not provide specific evidence for his claim.
In Moscow, Russian officials offered evidence Monday to counter U.S. claims that the rebels were responsible for shooting down the jet. The Defense Ministry showed photos they said proved that Ukrainian surface-to-air systems were operating in the area before the crash - nine times alone on Thursday, the day the plane was brought down.
Russian officials also said they had evidence that a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet had flown "between 3 to 5 kilometers (2 to 3 miles)" from the Malaysia Airlines jet.
"(The plane) is armed with air-to-air R-60 rockets, which can hit a target from a distance of up to 12 kilometers (7 miles) and guaranteed within 5 kilometers (3 miles)," said the chief of Russia's General staff, Andrei Kartopolov.
The defense ministry officials also insisted that Russia had not given the rebels any surface-to-air missiles and added they have no evidence that any missiles were launched at all. They asked the U.S. to share any satellite images of the launch.
In the Netherlands, victims' families were being consoled Monday by the Dutch royals.
Source : Sapa-AP /ns
Date : 21 Jul 2014 21:41
By DMITRY LOVETSKY and DAVID McHUGH
Associated Press
A refrigerated train carrying Malaysia Airlines victims' bodies pulled away Monday from a rebel-held town in eastern Ukraine, one small step forward in easing the agony of their grieving families.
In an emotional inspection hours earlier, Dutch experts had called for a full forensic sweep of the Flight 17 crash site and told the armed separatists controlling the area that the train must be allowed to leave as soon as possible.
Four days after someone shot the Boeing 777 out of the sky, killing 298 people, pressure was growing on Russian President Vladimir Putin to rein in the insurgents and allow a full-scale investigation into the downing of the plane. The U.S., Ukraine and others say Moscow has armed the rebels, a charge Russia denies.
In Washington, President Barack Obama demanded that international investigators get full access to the crash site and accused the separatists of removing evidence and blocking investigators.
"What exactly are they trying to hide?" Obama asked, a day after the U.S. presented what it called "powerful" evidence that the rebels had shot down the plane with a Russian surface-to-air missile.
A team of international observers at the crash site suggested that some of the evidence may have been tampered with.
At the biggest of the incident sites on Monday, "we did not see any perimeter security in the place," OSCE spokesman Michael Bociurkiw told reporters in Donetsk. The monitors observed that one of the largest pieces of debris "had somewhat been split or moved apart."
On an earlier visit to one of the smaller impact sites observers had also witnessed apparent tampering. "When we were leaving, we observed workers there hacking into the fuselage with gas-powered equipment," Bociurkiw said.
At the U.N. in New York, the Security Council was voting later Monday on an Australia-proposed resolution demanding international access to the crash site and a cease-fire around the area. Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott said his country would view a Russian veto of the resolution "very badly," adding that "no reasonable person" could object to its wording.
Fighting flared again between the separatists and government troops in the eastern rebel-held city of Donetsk, just 50 kilometers (30 miles) to the west of the crash site. City authorities said battles took place Monday near the town's airport. An AP reporter heard several explosions and saw smoke rising from that direction.
After the train with the bodies left the town of Torez, two military jets also flew overhead and black smoke was seen rising in the distance.
Fighting began in mid-April in eastern Ukraine after Russia annexed Ukraine's southern Crimean Peninsula a month earlier.
There is great concern in the Netherlands about the bodies, since 192 of the plane's 298 victims were Dutch and another was Dutch-American. Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said Monday that repatriating the bodies was his "No. 1 priority."
An Associated Press reporter saw the train with the bodies leaving Torez, a rebel-held town 15 kilometers (9 miles) from the plane crash site, and overheard rebels saying it was heading for the rebel-held town of Ilovaysk. The Ukrainian government later said the train was eventually heading to a crisis center in the government-controlled eastern city of Kharkiv.
In farm fields near the eastern village of Hrabove, Peter van Vliet, leader of the group from the Dutch National Forensic Investigations Team visiting Ukraine, said seeing the crash site gave him goose bumps despite the heat. Workers recovered more bodies from the site Monday, bringing the total to 282 bodies, according to Volodymyr Groisman, Ukraine's deputy prime minister.
The Dutch team - which specializes in victim recovery and identification - saw some victims' remains still rotting in the fields of the crash site. They also inspected piles of passenger luggage, suggesting that they be put in a container and shipped out.
At the Torez train station, the Dutch investigators stood for a moment with their heads bowed and their hands clasped before climbing aboard to inspect the train cars, surrounded by armed rebels.
AP journalists said the smell of decay was overwhelming at the Torez train station and many with the inspectors wore masks or pressed cloths to their faces on the sunny, 84 degree Fahrenheit (29 degrees Celsius) day. A Ukrainian train engineer told The Associated Press that a power outage had hit the rail cars' refrigeration system for several hours overnight.
In Kharkiv, another team of international experts arrived, including 23 Dutch, three Australians, two Germans, two Americans, and one person from the U.K.
Malaysia's prime minister said the rebels agreed to hand over both black boxes from Flight 17 to Malaysian investigators in Ukraine later Monday.
The U.S. evidence that the rebels were involved in downing the plan included video of a rocket launcher, one surface-to-air missile missing, leaving the likely launch site; imagery showing the firing; phone calls claiming credit for the missile strike and phone recordings said to reveal a cover-up at the crash site.
"A buildup of extraordinary circumstantial evidence ... it's powerful here," said U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry. "Russia is supporting these separatists. Russia is arming these separatists. Russia is training these separatists."
Putin lashed out against the criticism Monday, accusing others of exploiting the downing of the plane for "mercenary objectives."
Putin said Russia was doing everything possible to allow a team of experts from the International Civil Aviation Organization, a U.N. agency, to investigate the scene. He again criticized Ukrainian government authorities in Kiev, saying they had reignited the fighting with the rebels after a unilateral cease-fire expired without progress on peace talks.
"If fighting in eastern Ukraine had not been renewed on June 28, this tragedy would not have happened," Putin said. "Nobody should or does have a right to use this tragedy for such mercenary objectives."
The head of counterintelligence for Ukraine's SBU security service, Vitaliy Najda, has said the Buk missile launchers came from Russia and called on Russia to supply the names of the service personnel "who brought about the launch of the missile" so they could be questioned. He said the rebels could not have operated the sophisticated weapon without Russian help but did not provide specific evidence for his claim.
In Moscow, Russian officials offered evidence Monday to counter U.S. claims that the rebels were responsible for shooting down the jet. The Defense Ministry showed photos they said proved that Ukrainian surface-to-air systems were operating in the area before the crash - nine times alone on Thursday, the day the plane was brought down.
Russian officials also said they had evidence that a Ukrainian Su-25 fighter jet had flown "between 3 to 5 kilometers (2 to 3 miles)" from the Malaysia Airlines jet.
"(The plane) is armed with air-to-air R-60 rockets, which can hit a target from a distance of up to 12 kilometers (7 miles) and guaranteed within 5 kilometers (3 miles)," said the chief of Russia's General staff, Andrei Kartopolov.
The defense ministry officials also insisted that Russia had not given the rebels any surface-to-air missiles and added they have no evidence that any missiles were launched at all. They asked the U.S. to share any satellite images of the launch.
In the Netherlands, victims' families were being consoled Monday by the Dutch royals.
Source : Sapa-AP /ns
Date : 21 Jul 2014 21:41
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
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DUTCH ANGER SWELLS AT TREATMENT OF UKRAINE BODIES
By MIKE CORDER
Associated Press
The families and friends of Dutch citizens blown out of the sky above Ukraine poured out their grief and anger Monday at a meeting with their monarch and political leaders.
"This terrible disaster has left a deep wound in our society," a somber King Willem-Alexander said after meeting the next of kin at a private meeting. "The scar will be visible and tangible for years to come."
The Dutch have widely condemned the way the bodies of the victims have been treated in Ukraine and the fact they have not yet been returned home, four days after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 killed 298 passengers and crew, including 193 Dutch citizens.
In an unusual move that underscored the severity of the national trauma, the king gave a brief televised address to the country after meeting hundreds of grieving relatives and friends of the dead near the central city of Utrecht.
"Many people said to us, 'We at least want to take dignified leave of our loved ones,'" he said. "We understand their frustration and their pain. And we share their heartfelt wish for clarity on the cause of this disaster."
Speaking after the same meeting, Prime Minister Mark Rutte also acknowledged the nation's discontent.
"All of the Netherlands feels their anger," Rutte said. "All of the Netherlands feels their deep grief. All of the Netherlands is standing with the next of kin."
Victor Jammers, policy director of the organization Victim Support Netherlands, also was in the meeting. He said relatives were angry at being kept in the dark.
"The people I spoke to direct their anger of course to the Ukraine and to Russia, to give you an example, but there is also anger toward the Dutch government, because relatives wanted more information than they got in the past days," he said.
One of the questions many are asking is: Will the perpetrators face justice?
Prosecutors in the Netherlands said they have begun a criminal investigation, though it remains unclear exactly where any suspects might face a court, if they can be tracked down.
One relative who said she was going to the meeting was Silene Fredriksz-Hoogzand, whose son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy Oehlers died on their way to a vacation in Bali.
She expressed disbelief Sunday at how the bodies have been treated.
"Bodies are just lying there for three days in the hot sun," she told The Associated Press. "There are people who have this on their conscience. There are families who can never hold the body of a child or a mother."
Before meeting the families, Rutte briefed lawmakers who had hurried back from their summer recess. He told them that getting the bodies home as soon as possible was his government's top priority. He said a Dutch military transport plane is ready to repatriate the remains, which are now being stored in a refrigerated train in a rebel-held town.
"If the train finally gets going and the bodies get to Ukraine-controlled territory then we would prefer - and a Hercules is ready at Kharkiv airport - to get the bodies back to the Netherlands as soon as possible," Rutte said.
The train set off at the end of the day, its destination not immediately known.
Right-wing lawmaker Louis Bontes urged the government to send Dutch special forces to secure the crash site.
"This messing around with our people can go on no longer," he said. "Our people must be brought home now."
Rutte said he has made it "crystal clear" to Russian President Vladimir Putin that he must use his influence with rebels to ensure unhindered access to the crash scene for international investigators. He says sanctions could be slapped on "those directly or indirectly responsible" for hindering the probe.
"All political, economic and financial options are on the table," he said.
He also said he wants to ensure the perpetrators of the attack are brought to justice.
Dutch national prosecutor's office spokesman Wim de Bruin said the organization is investigating "allegations of murder, war crimes and downing a civilian passenger plane."
The charges carry a maximum life sentence if proven in Dutch courts.
De Bruin said one Dutch prosecutor is already in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, to work with prosecutors there on the case.
There is no formal day of national mourning yet for the victims, but across the country local commemorations are being held.
Hundreds of mourners, including popular chefs and the city's mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb, walked silently in pouring rain through Rotterdam on Monday night to commemorate a couple who ran a popular Chinese restaurant in the port city. In Amsterdam, a handful of people gathered behind the city's iconic Rijksmuseum to hold a minute of silence.
Fredriksz-Hoogzand said her grief for her son and his girlfriend was overwhelming.
"When I am in my bed at night, I see my son lying on the ground," she told The Associated Press. "I see Daisy. I see Bryce. I see them in my head. I see it! They have to come home, not only those two. Everybody has to come home."
King Willem-Alexander said all he and his wife Maxima could do was listen to the stories and be there for the relatives.
"We are deeply touched by the distressing personal stories of people who lost loved ones. People whose lives are shattered," he said. "Their grief, powerlessness and desperation cuts to our souls."
Source : Sapa-AP /ns
Date : 21 Jul 2014 20:56
By MIKE CORDER
Associated Press
The families and friends of Dutch citizens blown out of the sky above Ukraine poured out their grief and anger Monday at a meeting with their monarch and political leaders.
"This terrible disaster has left a deep wound in our society," a somber King Willem-Alexander said after meeting the next of kin at a private meeting. "The scar will be visible and tangible for years to come."
The Dutch have widely condemned the way the bodies of the victims have been treated in Ukraine and the fact they have not yet been returned home, four days after the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 killed 298 passengers and crew, including 193 Dutch citizens.
In an unusual move that underscored the severity of the national trauma, the king gave a brief televised address to the country after meeting hundreds of grieving relatives and friends of the dead near the central city of Utrecht.
"Many people said to us, 'We at least want to take dignified leave of our loved ones,'" he said. "We understand their frustration and their pain. And we share their heartfelt wish for clarity on the cause of this disaster."
Speaking after the same meeting, Prime Minister Mark Rutte also acknowledged the nation's discontent.
"All of the Netherlands feels their anger," Rutte said. "All of the Netherlands feels their deep grief. All of the Netherlands is standing with the next of kin."
Victor Jammers, policy director of the organization Victim Support Netherlands, also was in the meeting. He said relatives were angry at being kept in the dark.
"The people I spoke to direct their anger of course to the Ukraine and to Russia, to give you an example, but there is also anger toward the Dutch government, because relatives wanted more information than they got in the past days," he said.
One of the questions many are asking is: Will the perpetrators face justice?
Prosecutors in the Netherlands said they have begun a criminal investigation, though it remains unclear exactly where any suspects might face a court, if they can be tracked down.
One relative who said she was going to the meeting was Silene Fredriksz-Hoogzand, whose son Bryce and his girlfriend Daisy Oehlers died on their way to a vacation in Bali.
She expressed disbelief Sunday at how the bodies have been treated.
"Bodies are just lying there for three days in the hot sun," she told The Associated Press. "There are people who have this on their conscience. There are families who can never hold the body of a child or a mother."
Before meeting the families, Rutte briefed lawmakers who had hurried back from their summer recess. He told them that getting the bodies home as soon as possible was his government's top priority. He said a Dutch military transport plane is ready to repatriate the remains, which are now being stored in a refrigerated train in a rebel-held town.
"If the train finally gets going and the bodies get to Ukraine-controlled territory then we would prefer - and a Hercules is ready at Kharkiv airport - to get the bodies back to the Netherlands as soon as possible," Rutte said.
The train set off at the end of the day, its destination not immediately known.
Right-wing lawmaker Louis Bontes urged the government to send Dutch special forces to secure the crash site.
"This messing around with our people can go on no longer," he said. "Our people must be brought home now."
Rutte said he has made it "crystal clear" to Russian President Vladimir Putin that he must use his influence with rebels to ensure unhindered access to the crash scene for international investigators. He says sanctions could be slapped on "those directly or indirectly responsible" for hindering the probe.
"All political, economic and financial options are on the table," he said.
He also said he wants to ensure the perpetrators of the attack are brought to justice.
Dutch national prosecutor's office spokesman Wim de Bruin said the organization is investigating "allegations of murder, war crimes and downing a civilian passenger plane."
The charges carry a maximum life sentence if proven in Dutch courts.
De Bruin said one Dutch prosecutor is already in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, to work with prosecutors there on the case.
There is no formal day of national mourning yet for the victims, but across the country local commemorations are being held.
Hundreds of mourners, including popular chefs and the city's mayor Ahmed Aboutaleb, walked silently in pouring rain through Rotterdam on Monday night to commemorate a couple who ran a popular Chinese restaurant in the port city. In Amsterdam, a handful of people gathered behind the city's iconic Rijksmuseum to hold a minute of silence.
Fredriksz-Hoogzand said her grief for her son and his girlfriend was overwhelming.
"When I am in my bed at night, I see my son lying on the ground," she told The Associated Press. "I see Daisy. I see Bryce. I see them in my head. I see it! They have to come home, not only those two. Everybody has to come home."
King Willem-Alexander said all he and his wife Maxima could do was listen to the stories and be there for the relatives.
"We are deeply touched by the distressing personal stories of people who lost loved ones. People whose lives are shattered," he said. "Their grief, powerlessness and desperation cuts to our souls."
Source : Sapa-AP /ns
Date : 21 Jul 2014 20:56
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
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UP TO 12 HOURS FOR MH17 BODIES TO REACH KHARKIV: DUTCH PM
A train carrying bodies from flight MH17 could take 10-12 hours to reach Ukrainian city Kharkiv after passing through rebel-held territory, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said Monday.
Rutte said the train, which finally left Torez station near the crash site of the Malaysia Airways 777 at around 1600 GMT on Monday, would travel through separatist-controlled Donetsk to Kharkiv, where the Dutch coordination centre is to receive all 298 victims.
Rutte said there were around 200 bodies on the train, but they needed to be counted in Kharkiv.
"Donetsk is still under rebel control and the intention is for the train to go from Donetsk to Kharkiv," Rutte said.
Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko said the journey "could take 10 to 12 hours," Rutte said.
Amid reports of rebels disrespecting the bodies, including of 193 Dutch, Rutte said that "the way the victims bodies were handled appears to have been more careful than we thought".
The bodies will in Kharkiv be taken from the train and after preliminary examination be put on a plane to the Netherlands, which is charged with their identification, Rutte said.
Source : Sapa-AFP /ns
Date : 21 Jul 2014 20:31
A train carrying bodies from flight MH17 could take 10-12 hours to reach Ukrainian city Kharkiv after passing through rebel-held territory, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte said Monday.
Rutte said the train, which finally left Torez station near the crash site of the Malaysia Airways 777 at around 1600 GMT on Monday, would travel through separatist-controlled Donetsk to Kharkiv, where the Dutch coordination centre is to receive all 298 victims.
Rutte said there were around 200 bodies on the train, but they needed to be counted in Kharkiv.
"Donetsk is still under rebel control and the intention is for the train to go from Donetsk to Kharkiv," Rutte said.
Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko said the journey "could take 10 to 12 hours," Rutte said.
Amid reports of rebels disrespecting the bodies, including of 193 Dutch, Rutte said that "the way the victims bodies were handled appears to have been more careful than we thought".
The bodies will in Kharkiv be taken from the train and after preliminary examination be put on a plane to the Netherlands, which is charged with their identification, Rutte said.
Source : Sapa-AFP /ns
Date : 21 Jul 2014 20:31
Nanfeishen
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Money
and Yes, certainly others are to blame.
http://www.smh.com.au/business/avia...-for-airspace-safety-iata-20140720-zuzmp.html
Unhappy438
Honorary Master
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Black boxes handed over to Malaysian officials
Nanfeishen
Executive Member
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Very simple really:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser-guided_bomb
Note: While it increases the risk to SAM missliles, it reduces the risk to MANPAD's which the Seperatists were known to be using as even the latest SAM24 MANPAD only has a ceiling of about 12000ft, but it is well within the range of a BUK missile system, which the Seperatists were not supposed to have.
Ukraine possesses, both the SU-25 UBM, as well as the SU-25 M1.
Both are capable of flying in the 7000 - 10000 m range (20 - 30 000ft), basically service ceiling and maximum ceiling.
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Aircraft/Su_25UBM.html
http://www.redstar.gr/Foto_red/Eng/Aircraft/Su_25M1.html
I used these 2 links as Wiki's one came from Janes 2004 , these seem to be dated more recently.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/su25/
Nanfeishen
Executive Member
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Do you honestly believe for one second that they would admit to having any planes in the area ? :wtf:
Not to mention it was his decision to end the ceasefire and to renew fighting, that led up to this event.
That would be admitting that their military plane's actions were either directly or indirectly responsible for this tragedy.
No way, its far easier and more convenient to blame the seperatists and Russia.
Dave
Honorary Master
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There were 2 or 3 NATO AWACS planes up on the day the separatists shot down MH17, they would know exactly what government planes were up and wouldn't be quiet if a Ukrainian government jet was involved, even indirectly.
Jola
Honorary Master
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Especially since the separatists admitted it in the phone call.
garyc
Expert Member
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With the bodies back they should be able to determine if the aircraft was actually hit by a missile. There would be significant shrapnel injuries if this is the case.
If there is shrapnel lodged in the bodies this may also answer the question as to what type of missile was used (SA-11 or R-73)
If there is shrapnel lodged in the bodies this may also answer the question as to what type of missile was used (SA-11 or R-73)
Polymathic
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They're sometimes referred to as "Russian Backed Rebels"
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
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PROTESTERS AT RUSSIAN EMBASSY IN KL SEEK JUSTICE
Protesters marched on the Russian embassy in Kuala Lumpur on Tuesday, waving placards and demanding justice for the victims of the Malaysia Airlines flight that was shot down over Ukraine last week.
Several hundred chanted "we want justice" and demanded that authorities catch whoever was responsible for downing the passenger jet in rebel-held eastern Ukraine, killing 298 people.
Western countries have accused the rebels, possibly with help from Russia, of shooting down the plane, and the United Nations Security Council unanimously backed an Australian-drafted resolution on Monday demanding that the pro-Russian rebels controlling the crash site refrain from compromising evidence.
The rally was organized by the youth wing of UMNO, Malaysia's largest political part.
A Russian Embassy official said that staff members had been ordered to stay inside the embassy compound. She did not want to give her name as she was not authorized to speak to the media.
Earlier Tuesday, the Russian ambassador, Lyudmila Vorobyeva, reiterated that Russia had nothing to do with the plane crash and pointed the finger at Ukraine.
"The rebels do not possess any defense systems that are capable of shooting a plane at the altitude of 10 kilometers. They do not have this kind of system. Russia never supplies this kind of system," she told a news conference.
She said that Russia was not "playing" games of laying blame without any evidence. "We are not doing that. We are calling for a thorough investigation that could produce evidence of who is responsible for this tragedy," she said.
Source : Sapa-AP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 09:32
Protesters marched on the Russian embassy in Kuala Lumpur on Tuesday, waving placards and demanding justice for the victims of the Malaysia Airlines flight that was shot down over Ukraine last week.
Several hundred chanted "we want justice" and demanded that authorities catch whoever was responsible for downing the passenger jet in rebel-held eastern Ukraine, killing 298 people.
Western countries have accused the rebels, possibly with help from Russia, of shooting down the plane, and the United Nations Security Council unanimously backed an Australian-drafted resolution on Monday demanding that the pro-Russian rebels controlling the crash site refrain from compromising evidence.
The rally was organized by the youth wing of UMNO, Malaysia's largest political part.
A Russian Embassy official said that staff members had been ordered to stay inside the embassy compound. She did not want to give her name as she was not authorized to speak to the media.
Earlier Tuesday, the Russian ambassador, Lyudmila Vorobyeva, reiterated that Russia had nothing to do with the plane crash and pointed the finger at Ukraine.
"The rebels do not possess any defense systems that are capable of shooting a plane at the altitude of 10 kilometers. They do not have this kind of system. Russia never supplies this kind of system," she told a news conference.
She said that Russia was not "playing" games of laying blame without any evidence. "We are not doing that. We are calling for a thorough investigation that could produce evidence of who is responsible for this tragedy," she said.
Source : Sapa-AP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 09:32
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LazyLion
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LEAD UKRAINE REBELS GIVE MH17 FLIGHT RECORDERS TO MALAYSIA
Pro-Russian rebels delivered the flight data and voice recorders of downed passenger plane MH17 to Malaysian officials on Tuesday, a senior government official said. The two black boxes were handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk by pro-Russian separatists, said Khairil Hilmi Mokhtar, leader of Malaysia's special investigation team in Kiev.
"We will take them to the Netherlands before bringing them back home to Malaysia," said Khairil Hilmi, according to Malaysia's state-run Bernama news agency. The instruments were given to a group of Malaysian officials led by National Security Council member Colonel Mohamed Shukri, a government source in Kuala Lumpur said.
The equipment appeared to be in good condition, the source said. "Malaysia will keep it for safekeeping temporarily and will eventually hand it to the proper investigating body," he said.
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard. It was suspected to have been shot down by a missile.
Russian Ambassador to Malaysia Lyudmila Vorobyeva said she was convinced the pro-Russian separatists were not capable of shooting down the jetliner, as the guerrillas were not armed with a sophisticated missile system and did not have the technical know-how. "The BUK missile system is very sophisticated and you need special training to operate it," she told a press conference at the embassy in Kuala Lumpur. "I am convinced that there is no way they (rebels) could have done it."
The delivery of the black boxes occurred after Prime Minister Najib Razak spoke Monday with rebel leader Alexander Borodai, who controls the territory where the plane crashed. Najib said Borodai agreed to have the human remains from the crash site moved to Kharkiv, where they would be turned over to representatives of the Dutch government. He also said independent international investigators would be guaranteed safe access to the crash site.
Source : Sapa-dpa /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 07:58
Pro-Russian rebels delivered the flight data and voice recorders of downed passenger plane MH17 to Malaysian officials on Tuesday, a senior government official said. The two black boxes were handed over to a Malaysian team in Donetsk by pro-Russian separatists, said Khairil Hilmi Mokhtar, leader of Malaysia's special investigation team in Kiev.
"We will take them to the Netherlands before bringing them back home to Malaysia," said Khairil Hilmi, according to Malaysia's state-run Bernama news agency. The instruments were given to a group of Malaysian officials led by National Security Council member Colonel Mohamed Shukri, a government source in Kuala Lumpur said.
The equipment appeared to be in good condition, the source said. "Malaysia will keep it for safekeeping temporarily and will eventually hand it to the proper investigating body," he said.
Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 crashed in eastern Ukraine on Thursday, killing all 298 people aboard. It was suspected to have been shot down by a missile.
Russian Ambassador to Malaysia Lyudmila Vorobyeva said she was convinced the pro-Russian separatists were not capable of shooting down the jetliner, as the guerrillas were not armed with a sophisticated missile system and did not have the technical know-how. "The BUK missile system is very sophisticated and you need special training to operate it," she told a press conference at the embassy in Kuala Lumpur. "I am convinced that there is no way they (rebels) could have done it."
The delivery of the black boxes occurred after Prime Minister Najib Razak spoke Monday with rebel leader Alexander Borodai, who controls the territory where the plane crashed. Najib said Borodai agreed to have the human remains from the crash site moved to Kharkiv, where they would be turned over to representatives of the Dutch government. He also said independent international investigators would be guaranteed safe access to the crash site.
Source : Sapa-dpa /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 07:58
Ockie
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LazyLion
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SYRIA FLY-OVER SPARKS NEW CRITICISM OF MALAYSIA AIRLINES
Embattled Malaysia Airlines faced fresh outrage Tuesday as it confirmed one of its planes flew over war-torn Syria, just days after the MH17 disaster laid bare the risks civilian aircraft face in flying over war zones.
The Malaysian flag carrier confirmed that flight MH4, bound from London for Kuala Lumpur on Sunday, re-routed over Syria following the closure of the flight's usual route over Ukraine in the wake of the MH17 tragedy three days earlier.
In a statement issued late Monday, the crisis-hit airline said the Syrian flight path was among routes approved by the UN's International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).
"As per the notice to airmen (NOTAM) issued by the Syrian Civil Aviation Authority, the Syrian airspace was not subject to restrictions. At all times, MH004 was in airspace approved by ICAO," it said.
But the move drew disbelief and scorn on social media.
"What is wrong with these guys?! Malaysians are now flying over Syria," said one of many Twitter postings on the issue.
"Wanna lose another plane?" asked another.
Pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine -- where a violent rebellion has raged for months -- have been accused of shooting down MH17, killing all 298 aboard in a tragedy that has triggered world outrage.
Syria has been convulsed by a far more bloody civil war since 2011.
The airlines and Malaysia's government have previously defended MH17's flight path over Ukraine.
They cited ICAO clearance for the route, and noted that several major carriers used the well-traveled Europe-Asia path up until the MH17 attack, though some other airlines had abandoned it months ago.
Air traffic tracking site Flightradar24 first reported MH4's flight path on its Twitter feed Monday.
"As far as we have seen #MH4 was the only transcontinental flight going over Syria," it said.
Malaysia Airlines (MAS) did not respond to AFP queries on whether the airline would continue to use the Syria route.
But Flightradar24 data showed that the path of MH4 on Monday -- a day after the Syria flyover -- skirted just east of Syrian airspace, over Turkey.
Airlines seek the most direct routes possible to minimise flight time and fuel costs, but MH17, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, has spectacularly highlighted the potential risks of flying over world hotspots.
Besides Syria and Ukraine, fighting in areas such as Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East make it difficult to find conflict-free routes for already congested air traffic.
The International Air Transport Association (IATA) chief Tony Tyler issued a statement on Tuesday condemning the MH17 attack and defending Malaysia Airlines.
"Governments and air navigation service providers inform airlines about the routes that they can fly and with what restrictions. Airlines comply with that guidance. That was the case with MH17," Tyler said.
Both Moscow and the pro-Russia rebels who seek to break away from Ukraine have denied accusations by Washington and Kiev that MH17 was shot down by the insurgents using a missile system supplied by Russia.
Malaysia Airlines had already faced withering criticism over the mysterious disappearance of flight MH370 en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing on March 8 with 239 people aboard.
The plane inexplicably veered off course and is now believed to have gone down far to the south in the Indian Ocean, but no trace of any wreckage has been found, and the cause of its disappearance remains unknown.
Source : Sapa-AFP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 07:41
Embattled Malaysia Airlines faced fresh outrage Tuesday as it confirmed one of its planes flew over war-torn Syria, just days after the MH17 disaster laid bare the risks civilian aircraft face in flying over war zones.
The Malaysian flag carrier confirmed that flight MH4, bound from London for Kuala Lumpur on Sunday, re-routed over Syria following the closure of the flight's usual route over Ukraine in the wake of the MH17 tragedy three days earlier.
In a statement issued late Monday, the crisis-hit airline said the Syrian flight path was among routes approved by the UN's International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO).
"As per the notice to airmen (NOTAM) issued by the Syrian Civil Aviation Authority, the Syrian airspace was not subject to restrictions. At all times, MH004 was in airspace approved by ICAO," it said.
But the move drew disbelief and scorn on social media.
"What is wrong with these guys?! Malaysians are now flying over Syria," said one of many Twitter postings on the issue.
"Wanna lose another plane?" asked another.
Pro-Russia separatists in eastern Ukraine -- where a violent rebellion has raged for months -- have been accused of shooting down MH17, killing all 298 aboard in a tragedy that has triggered world outrage.
Syria has been convulsed by a far more bloody civil war since 2011.
The airlines and Malaysia's government have previously defended MH17's flight path over Ukraine.
They cited ICAO clearance for the route, and noted that several major carriers used the well-traveled Europe-Asia path up until the MH17 attack, though some other airlines had abandoned it months ago.
Air traffic tracking site Flightradar24 first reported MH4's flight path on its Twitter feed Monday.
"As far as we have seen #MH4 was the only transcontinental flight going over Syria," it said.
Malaysia Airlines (MAS) did not respond to AFP queries on whether the airline would continue to use the Syria route.
But Flightradar24 data showed that the path of MH4 on Monday -- a day after the Syria flyover -- skirted just east of Syrian airspace, over Turkey.
Airlines seek the most direct routes possible to minimise flight time and fuel costs, but MH17, which was en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, has spectacularly highlighted the potential risks of flying over world hotspots.
Besides Syria and Ukraine, fighting in areas such as Afghanistan and elsewhere in the Middle East make it difficult to find conflict-free routes for already congested air traffic.
The International Air Transport Association (IATA) chief Tony Tyler issued a statement on Tuesday condemning the MH17 attack and defending Malaysia Airlines.
"Governments and air navigation service providers inform airlines about the routes that they can fly and with what restrictions. Airlines comply with that guidance. That was the case with MH17," Tyler said.
Both Moscow and the pro-Russia rebels who seek to break away from Ukraine have denied accusations by Washington and Kiev that MH17 was shot down by the insurgents using a missile system supplied by Russia.
Malaysia Airlines had already faced withering criticism over the mysterious disappearance of flight MH370 en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing on March 8 with 239 people aboard.
The plane inexplicably veered off course and is now believed to have gone down far to the south in the Indian Ocean, but no trace of any wreckage has been found, and the cause of its disappearance remains unknown.
Source : Sapa-AFP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 07:41