Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine!

[Unhappy438]

How much (in $ or €) did Holland and Malaysia pay the separatists to persuade them to change their mind and hand over stuff so quickly?

The Dutch probably paid in threats, they have a mean fighting force. I wouldn't be surprised if we see the emergence of "Dutch mercenaries" in Ukraine in the near future

 

[LazyLion]

How much (in $ or €) did Holland and Malaysia pay the separatists to persuade them to change their mind and hand over stuff so quickly?

Link?

 

[Unhappy438]

Link?

Link to what, im sure hes referring to the black boxes...

 

[LazyLion]

DUTCH TO RECOVER MH17 BODIES FROM MORGUE TRAIN

Dutch experts on Tuesday prepared to take custody of some 280 bodies recovered from downed Malaysian flight MH17, as a train carrying the remains arrived in the government-held Ukrainian city of Kharkiv.

Rebels controlling the crash site released the morgue train under intense international pressure, finally allowing a great majority of the 298 crash victims to begin the long journey home.

Their remains are now to be flown to the Netherlands, which had 193 citizens on board the doomed flight and is taking the lead in investigating a disaster that has brought Ukraine's bloody three-month conflict to the doorstep of countries as far away as Australia.

Pro-Russian separatists -- who stand accused of bringing down the aircraft, possibly with a missile supplied by Moscow -- bowed to a furious clamour for the bodies and black boxes to be handed to investigators five days after the crash.

The rebel concessions came as European foreign ministers were meeting in Brussels to weigh possible new sanctions against Russia for its perceived support of the insurgency rocking ex-Soviet Ukraine.

Both black boxes, which record cockpit activity and flight data, were handed to Malaysian officials by the prime minister of the self-proclaimed Donetsk People's Republic, Alexander Borodai, before scores of journalists.

As world leaders denounced the "shambolic" situation at the crash site, international experts finally managed Monday to inspect the bodies, kept in refrigerated train cars away from the sweltering summer heat, before they left for Kharkiv.

Borodai also announced a ceasefire within 10 kilometres of the impact site, hours after Kiev's pro-Western authorities said they would halt all fighting in a broader zone.

The localised truce will at last allow international monitors to examine the vast area, a forensic minefield littered with poignant fragments from hundreds of destroyed lives.

Elsewhere in Ukraine's east, fighting between government forces and rebels continued unabated with local authorities in the besieged cities of Donetsk and Lugansk reporting 10 civilians killed in 24 hours.

In a sign tensions are still running high a senior security official in Kiev claimed that Russia had massed over 40,000 soldiers along its border over the past week.

Despite the apparent progress in getting the investigation going, leaders warned the rebels' handling of the crash site had already done much damage.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott, whose country had 28 citizens and nine residents on the plane, said: "There is still a long, long way to go."

"After the crime comes the cover-up," he added. "What we have seen is evidence tampering on an industrial scale. That has to stop."

Experts from Malaysia, reeling from their flagship carrier's second disaster in only four months after flight MH370 went missing in the Indian Ocean, said the black boxes were "intact with only minor damage."

"We have not found the black boxes from flight MH370, so (we) are happy to be able to recover these," said a member of the Malaysian team.

Malaysia's deal with the pro-Russian rebels caps a disaster response praised at home as swift and clear, unlike the widely mocked handling of missing flight MH370.

But the flag carrier Malaysian Airlines had to defend itself after confirming it diverted a flight over Syrian airspace when its usual route over Ukraine was closed following the crash.

The airline said in a statement that MH4's flight path over Syria was along a route approved by the UN's aviation agency.

In Brussels, European foreign ministers were meeting to discuss possible new sanctions against Russia, which has been accused by the United States of supplying the missile allegedly used to shoot down the plane.

Obama put the onus on Moscow to lift the suspicions weighing upon it, saying President Vladimir Putin must prove "that he supports a full and fair investigation".

An under-fire Moscow hit back, saying records showed a Ukrainian military plane was flying three to five kilometres from the Boeing 777 before it crashed.

"With what aim was a military plane flying along a civilian aviation route practically at the same time and at the same flight level as a passenger liner?" asked Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov.

Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko dismissed the suggestion the army was to blame, calling it an "irresponsible and false statement" by Russia.

The US embassy has confirmed as authentic recordings by Kiev of an intercepted call between an insurgent commander and a Russian intelligence officer as they realised they had shot down a passenger jet.

The Washington Post said Ukraine's counterintelligence chief had photographs and other evidence that three Buk M-1 anti-aircraft missile systems moved from rebel-held territory into Russia less than 12 hours after the crash.

The separatist uprising is the latest chapter in a prolonged crisis sparked by Kiev's desire for closer ties with the EU, a goal many in the Russian-speaking east do not share.


Source : Sapa-AFP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 11:52

 

[LazyLion]

Link to what, im sure hes referring to the black boxes...

He said the Dutch and Malaysians paid for it. I want to know where he gets that info from?

 

[Unhappy438]

He said the Dutch and Malaysians paid for it. I want to know where he gets that info from?

I don't think he was being serious, just wondering why they have started to cooperate so late and what circumstances changed.

 

[Fulcrum29]

The only thing the AWACS needed to detect is the missile launch, and its signature by identity, which they and the media state is a SA11 (which variant is unknown). The satellite imagery will back the claim, thus you have substantial evidence based on two sets.

The known system used by the Boeing E-3 Sentry (AWACS) is the pulse-Doppler radar with a low range (400km) and mid-high range (650km) according to Wiki, it is also equipped with a secondary surveillance radar to track below radar and ground units.

Then it also have the EAGLE system, two passive IR sensors to detect and track, allowing longer-range interceptions, this can be way over 1200km.

The wiki link is also outdated, as the AWACS is upgraded and modernised (in cooperation with RAF), the radar system is more capable than the given specs.

 

[LazyLion]

I don't think he was being serious, just wondering why they have started to cooperate so late and what circumstances changed.

So he just made it up? Why? Surely those countries would feel the pressure of getting things moving badly enough without anyone else adding to their motivations?

 

[Unhappy438]

So he just made it up? Why? Surely those countries would feel the pressure of getting things moving badly enough without anyone else adding to their motivations?

I dunno, its probably better for him to answer these questions instead of me guessing his motivations.

 

[Dave]

No, it it is not an error, just a lie.

An admission that Russia had supplied such weapons to the separatists immediately makes the Russians liable.

But we have all seen the photographs, the separatists DID have such weapons.

And they admitted to shooting down a large plane on that day.

The Russians are being very clever with their statements.

"The rebels do not possess any defense systems that are capable of shooting a plane at the altitude of 10 kilometers. They do not have this kind of system.

It's a true statement, the rebels don't possess such a system NOW, there has been plenty of proof showing the BUK systems returning to Russia after the shooting down of MH17.

The reporter should have asked "have the rebels EVER possessed such a system?"

 

[Jola]

The Russians are being very clever with their statements.

It's a true statement, the rebels don't possess such a system NOW, there has been plenty of proof showing the BUK systems returning to Russia after the shooting down of MH17.

The reporter should have asked "have the rebels EVER possessed such a system?"

Devious bastards !

 

[Seriously]

"The rebels do not possess any defense systems that are capable of shooting a plane at the altitude of 10 kilometers. They do not have this kind of system. Russia never supplies this kind of system," she told a news conference.

Source : Sapa-AP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 09:32

Then it's very very clear. The Russians themselves must have done it!

 

[garyc]

I don't think he was being serious, just wondering why they have started to cooperate so late and what circumstances changed.

I was also following things on Aljazeera. They were reporting on the agreements and protocols between the various parties as things progressed. None of this was being reported on by RT / CNN / BBC, except to spring the news at the last moment as being "abrupt" or "dramatic turnaround". Even then they were selective with the facts, only including the ones that fitted their existing standpoints.

This may be in support of their respective government's propaganda positions, but it may also be sensationalism for ratings.

 

[Ockie]

Lufthansa joins Emirates in calls for airlines summit on MH17

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-airlines-lufthansa-idINL6N0PW3HN20140721

Data collected from flight tracking website Flight Radar shows Lufthansa was among the airlines to have flown most frequently over the Donetsk region, where some parts are controlled by pro-Russian separatists, in the week leading up to the downing of MH17.

Lufthansa, which has defended its decision to fly over the area, said the disaster was of an entirely new magnitude. "Never before has a commercial aircraft been taken down by surface-to-air missiles at cruising altitude on one of the world's busiest airways," the spokesman said.

Could easily have been a Lufthansa A380 with 500 people on it it seems.

If it was, I wonder if the the outrage and action would have been more severe?

 

[Unhappy438]

I was also following things on Aljazeera. They were reporting on the agreements and protocols between the various parties as things progressed. None of this was being reported on by RT / CNN / BBC, except to spring the news at the last moment as being "abrupt" or "dramatic turnaround". Even then they were selective with the facts, only including the ones that fitted their existing standpoints.

This may be in support of their respective government's propaganda positions, but it may also be sensationalism for ratings.

I think the truth of the matter is that the separatists were waiting for the Malaysians to hand the boxes over to them and thats why it took 4/5 days. The separatists don't trust the Ukrainian government so they weren't going to hand the boxes over to them.

 

[Arthur]

I'm feeling rather sorry for the poor Malaysians, and so it's a relief to hear that Lufthansa was flying the same route. I did see a TV report that Virgin, Singapore and others were also using that route, including on the same day.

 

[Bar0n]

I'm feeling rather sorry for the poor Malaysians, and so it's a relief to hear that Lufthansa was flying the same route. I did see a TV report that Virgin, Singapore and others were also using that route, including on the same day.

Apparently Air India was about 30 seconds behind MH17. (Think it was posted in this thread even? Or I read it online.)

 

[Ockie]

Apparently Air India was about 30 seconds behind MH17. (Think it was posted in this thread even? Or I read it online.)

Ja. Was a Boeing 787. They were also asked by ATC to try and make contact with MH17 seeing that they were right behind them.

 

[Sinbad]

http://in.reuters.com/article/2014/07/21/ukraine-crisis-airlines-lufthansa-idINL6N0PW3HN20140721



Could easily have been a Lufthansa A380 with 500 people on it it seems.

If it was, I wonder if the the outrage and action would have been more severe?

Merkel vs Putin, no holds barred...

 

[Unhappy438]

Shrapnel Damage on Malaysia Plane Consistent With Missile Strike, Experts Say

Images from the crash site of the downed Malaysia Airlines jetliner show it is pockmarked with holes and tears, consistent with shrapnel damage from a missile strike, an expert tells Mashable.

The photographs, taken by reporters and observers at the crash site in eastern Ukraine, show shrapnel holes in cargo and fuselage sections of the Boeing 777.

"These images, and all the others I have seen showing shrapnel damage are consistent with a large high-explosive fragmentation SAM [surface-to-air missile] warhead exploding in close proximity to the airliner," says Justin Bronk, a military sciences research analyst with the Royal United Services Institute.

"Since the only SAM system known to be in the area that is capable of reaching MH17 at 33,000 feet is the SA-11 'Buk', it seems very likely that this was the weapon used to shoot down the Malaysian flight," Bronk says, adding that the limited images available of the damage are consistent with this theory.

Douglas Barrie, a Senior Fellow for Military Aerospace with the International Institute for Strategic Studies, agrees.

The photographic evidence “was consistent with the kind of damage you would expect to see from the detonation of a high explosive fragmentation warhead of the type commonly used in a SAM system," he told the FT.

American officials said on Friday that they believe the Boeing 777 was brought down by an SA-11 missile fired from an area of eastern Ukraine controlled by pro-Russian separatists. U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power said the Russians might have provided technical help to the rebels to operate the systems.

A Ukrainian government adviser, Anton Gerashenko, also said the plane was taken down by a missile fired from a Buk launcher, a system developed by the former Soviet Union.

Nick de Larrinaga, a defense analyst at London-based think tank IHS Jane's, echoed that point, saying that medium-altitude SAM missile systems such as the 9K37 Buk (also known as the SA-11 'Gadfly') or the S-300 (aka SA-10 ‘Grumble) "could all have been used in this scenario."

“Russia and Ukraine have such SAM systems in their inventories,” de Larrinaga said.

"My guess is the system's radar saw a return from a big 'cargo' plane flying at 30,000 feet or so and either automatically fired, or some aggressive, itchy operator fired, not wanting to miss an opportunity. It doesn't seem they chose to seek any additional data before pulling the trigger," said retired U.S. Air Force Maj. Gen. Robert Latiff.

Once targeted by such a potent weapon, the Boeing wide-body twinjet would have had little chance.

A SA-11 missile carries an explosive warhead that detonates within 65 feet of its target, shredding the plane with tiny pieces of red-hot metal. The airliner, which is pressurized at cruising altitude to allow its passengers to breathe, would then rapidly depressurize, knocking out everyone on board before tearing into pieces.

Edward Hunt, a senior consultant for IHS Jane's, which provides news and analysis on defense and geopolitical issues, said a commercial plane is not a difficult target for someone who knows how to operate a surface-to-air missile system.

"Civilian aircraft fly in a straight line," Hunt said. "A civilian aircraft doesn't try to take evasive action. It probably didn't even know it was targeted."

Neither did the passengers.

“You have such horrific forces that it’s essentially unsurvivable,” James Vosswinkel, chief of trauma and surgical critical care at the State University of New York at Stony Brook and the man responsible for a definitive study of TWA Flight 800, told Bloomberg News.

“No one was conscious or experienced that fall.”

See link for pictures: http://mashable.com/2014/07/21/mh17-shrapnel-damage-missile-strike/