Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine!

Ockie

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Merkel vs Putin, no holds barred... :D

If this happened to Lufthansa and I was its leader I would have closed my borders to Russian nationals immediately and give any Russians that is still in the country 48 hours to leave and put the country on alert. Good thing I am not. :D

Even with their massive loss and even though they are mad, upset, sad, outraged, The Dutch are very much a subdued nation. Like the Swiss almost. They will never take a hard stand against a aggressor. Well, that is my opinion and impression of them.
 

Jola

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I do believe that the Australians should ban the Russians from attending the G20 meeting in Australia. I hope that they do.

Earlier this year Putin said that he did not care about the G8, that only the G20 mattered. So it is important to him.

Come on Aussies, do it !

And the 2018 World Cup, all Western countries should forbid their players to attend.
 

LazyLion

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MH17 CRASH PUTS RUSSIA'S SUPPORT OF REBELS UNDER SCRUTINY

The downing of the MH17 flight over rebel territory in Ukraine has put Moscow's support of the separatists under more scrutiny than ever amid allegations the plane was blasted out of the sky with a Russian-supplied missile system.

The US, whose relations with Moscow have dropped to a post-Cold War low over the Ukraine crisis, has led the charge.

"It's pretty clear that this is a system that was transferred from Russia in the hands of separatists," Secretary of State John Kerry said on Sunday.

But Moscow has denied the allegations, with a senior member of Russia's military general staff, Lieutenant-General Andrei Kartopolov, dismissing images that allegedly show Buk missile systems being transferred from Russia into Ukraine as fake.

"I want to stress that Russia did not give the rebels Buk missile systems or any other kinds of weapons or military hardware," he told reporters on Monday at a briefing, armed with slides, charts and images.

Observers say that separatists fighting Ukrainian troops in the east of the ex-Soviet republic would not be able to do so without support from Moscow.

"Without Russia, the rebels wouldn't have tanks or heavy artillery. The decisions (to supply rebels with weapons) are made at the governmental level," said Alexander Konovalov, president of the Institute of Strategic Assessments.

"This is being done under pressure from political groups that are even more anti-Western than (Russian President Vladimir) Putin is," he added.

The Malaysian plane crash, which killed 298 people flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur on Thursday, has increased perceptions of Russia's involvement with the rebels, said Maria Lipman, a political analyst with the Carnegie Moscow Centre.

"Russia has become a participant in the conflict in the eyes of the world, one who can control the rebels and with whom lies responsibility for this tragedy," Lipman said.

The Kremlin has always kept a certain level of official distance from the separatists -- Putin has never met with the leaders and did not recognise the independence of the self-proclaimed "Donetsk People's Republic" and "Lugansk People's Republic".

Russia even urged the separatists not to hold a referendum on secession from Ukraine -- a call they ignored, creating what observers say was an impression of disobeying Moscow's orders.

The Kremlin also snubbed the rebel leaders' calls to absorb Ukraine's separatist eastern regions into Russia and to send in peacekeeping troops when the armed conflict with Kiev intensified.

"It was admitted that Russia is involved in the conflict, but the extent of the involvement was concealed," said Lipman.

"Russia did not hide that consultations were held with rebel leaders, some of whom are also Russian citizens, and are partly financed by Russian businessmen."

Russian newspapers and television channels close to the Kremlin have sided with the pro-Russian rebels since the beginning of their uprising -- something they would not have done without Moscow's blessing.

When one of the separatist leaders, Denis Pushilin, claimed in June that he was received by Putin's powerful advisors, Vladislav Surkov and Sergei Glazyev, this was widely reported in the Russian media although not confirmed by the Kremlin.

Russian media has regularly reported on links between businessmen close to the Kremlin and rebel leaders such as the self-appointed prime minister of the Donetsk Republic, Alexander Borodai, and his defence minister Igor Strelkov -- both Russian citizens.

Unconfirmed media reports suggested that the rebel leaders are backed by a so-called "party of war" within the Russian leadership -- allegedly led by the Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin and Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu.

But despite the increased scrutiny, Putin has very limited room for manoeuvre between domestic political pressure and criticism from the United States and Europe, said Lipman.

"He can't give in to the West. Public opinion and apparently political elites expect something else from him - an anti-Western stance and support for pro-Russian rebels," she said.


Source : Sapa-AFP /kd
Date : 22 Jul 2014 12:19
 

Fulcrum29

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Possible frontal impact of the missile

View attachment 134403

The SA11 explodes approx. ~20m to target, it is designed to shred the target on detonation (designated impact zone) by a circular shrapnel ring propelled towards the target. The high-explosive warhead would be heading directly to the tanks in the wings.
 

Unhappy438

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Another video of the BUK system, supposedly in Torez but unconfirmed as the video is yet to be geolocated.

[video=youtube;6OJs1dksRwk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OJs1dksRwk&feature=youtu.be[/video]
 

Grant

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If this happened to Lufthansa and I was its leader I would have closed my borders to Russian nationals immediately and give any Russians that is still in the country 48 hours to leave and put the country on alert. Good thing I am not. :D

/watches on as ockie has drunken russians goose-stepping across the border
 

Unhappy438

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Bar0n

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/watches on as ockie has drunken russians goose-stepping across the border

Interesting factoid: soldiers "parade" with the goose-step, but don't march in it. Too strenuous to keep it up. As soon as they're out of sight (during a parade), they revert to a normal march.
 

Polymathic

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Possible frontal impact of the missile

View attachment 134403
Expert seem to say that the missile is a proximity one ie it explodes in the vicinity of the aircraft not impacting directly, the missile is said to release shrapnel when it explodes so chances are there could be several points where the shrapnel impacted the plane.
 

Unhappy438

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Expert seem to say that the missile is a proximity one ie it explodes in the vicinity of the aircraft not impacting directly, the missile is said to release shrapnel when it explodes so chances are there could be several points where the shrapnel impacted the plane.

I know that but you can still tell where the main area of impact is, if the front of the aircraft has shrapnel damage and the tail or middle doesn't then you can probably say it was frontal impact. Im not sure what kind of shrapnel area a missile like this would cover, but i would imagine the main impact area would show the majority of the damage.
 

Grant

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Interesting factoid: soldiers "parade" with the goose-step, but don't march in it. Too strenuous to keep it up. As soon as they're out of sight (during a parade), they revert to a normal march.

i've often wondered about that.
the chinese, north koreans & russians are also fond of it - must be hell for the soldiers.

i saw a chinese military display some years back - was quite odd, both mesmerizing & chilling at the same time.
 

Polymathic

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Another video of the BUK system, supposedly in Torez but unconfirmed as the video is yet to be geolocated.

[video=youtube;6OJs1dksRwk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OJs1dksRwk&feature=youtu.be[/video]

I worry for the people taking these videos they could be at risk, the rebels could find them by looking at land marks in these videos
 

Fulcrum29

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I know that but you can still tell where the main area of impact is, if the front of the aircraft has shrapnel damage and the tail or middle doesn't then you can probably say it was frontal impact. Im not sure what kind of shrapnel area a missile like this would cover, but i would imagine the main impact area would show the majority of the damage.

The missile is by no means dumb <- true description, it will do its own calculations to target and detonate on the given variables. This article covers the event more or less in laymen terms.

http://www.news.com.au/travel/trave...tleft-engine-pod/story-fnizu68q-1226996918073

This image by the same Justin Bronk you linked.

BtFdZCdCIAAxSQ0.jpg
 

Bar0n

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i've often wondered about that.
the chinese, north koreans & russians are also fond of it - must be hell for the soldiers.

i saw a chinese military display some years back - was quite odd, both mesmerizing & chilling at the same time.

It's regarded as a sign of strict discipline and looks impressive, but a lot of armed forces around the world simply don't bother with it anymore. It's a "display" of discipline, i.e. not doing is not indicative of a lack of discipline.
 
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