Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 shot down in Ukraine!

garyc

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Top 20 modern anti aircraft systems (SAM): http://youtu.be/Rechzf_FHq8

This is disturbing, I didn't know Russia has got missiles which can travel for a good 400km. The one used to down the plane is theirs and definitely considered a small toy there

The Buk / SA-11 is more of a medium range missile for battlefield defense. The larger missiles have considerably more range. As an example, in 2001 the Ukraine shot down an airliner over the Black Sea at a range of almost 300 km with an S-200.

The memorable part of that incident was the statement from the Ukrainian President: ''Bigger mistakes have been made".
 

The_Assimilator

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Can the thread title please be amended to indicate (a) the airliner was shot down (b) that it was shot down in Ukraine, not "the Ukraine"?
 

LazyLion

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DUTCH NATIONAL DAY OF MOURNING FOR MH17 VICTIMS WEDNESDAY

The Netherlands has declared Wednesday a national day of mourning for the 193 Dutch victims of the flight MH17 crash, Prime Minister Mark Rutte said in a statement.

The first bodies recovered from last week's disaster over rebel-held Ukraine, in which 298 people died, are due to arrive in the Netherlands at 1400 GMT on Wednesday, where they will be met by relatives.

King Willem Alexander, Queen Maxima and Rutte will also be present at Eindhoven airport for the arrival of the bodies, which will be marked by a minute's silence, the statement from the justice ministry Tuesday said.

Flags on public buildings around the country will fly at half mast, Rutte said.

Representatives of some of the 10 other nations whose citizens were killed in the crash will also be present.


Source : Sapa-AFP /ns
Date : 22 Jul 2014 19:55
 

LazyLion

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US TO RELEASE INTELLIGENCE ON DOWNING OF MH17

US intelligence officials were expected to present data Tuesday backing up the theory that pro-Russian rebels were responsible for the downing of flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 was blown out of the sky Thursday by what is believed to have been a surface-to-air missile, killing all 298 passengers and crew on board.

"There has been a lot of evidence that's already been presented that paints a pretty compelling picture," White House spokesman Josh Earnest said.

"I do expect that you'll hear from intel officials later today who will have some more data to present and some more evidence to indicate -- I guess some more evidence to educate you about what we know so far about that situation."

Earnest did not go into more detail about what was to be released.

The United States has alleged that the plane was shot down by an SA-11 surface-to-air missile system from an area in eastern Ukraine controlled by the Moscow-backed separatists.

"The Ukrainian military was not operating anti-aircraft weapons in that area at that time," Earnest reiterated.

On Monday, Obama voiced outrage that the probe into the downing of the airliner was being hampered by Ukrainian rebels and demanded that Russian leader Vladimir Putin force them to cooperate, saying Moscow had "direct influence over these separatists."

Putin, who has borne the brunt of international fury, pledged Tuesday to "do everything" to influence the separatists and ensure a full probe into the crash.

Moscow had earlier slapped down accusations that it had supplied the alleged missile system, with a senior defense official intimating that Kiev may have been responsible for its downing.


Source : Sapa-AFP /ns
Date : 22 Jul 2014 19:40
 

LazyLion

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EVIDENCE MOUNTS OF MH17 MISSILE STRIKE, BUT PROOF ELUSIVE
by Nicolas DELAUNAY

With evidence mounting that a surface-to-air missile brought down flight MH17 in Ukraine, experts warned Tuesday that proof remains a long way off and only satellite images can identify who pushed the button.

Recently published photographs show a piece of fuselage from the Malaysian Airlines plane peppered with "a fairly dense but also widespread shrapnel pattern" typical for the blast from an SA-11 surface-to-air missile, said defence analyst Justin Bronk.

Evidence already points to an SA-11 surface-to-air missile having shot down the Boeing 777 over rebel-held Ukrainian territory.

"The shrapnel damage on the airframe parts that's been seen so far is consistent with what you would expect to see from an SA-11 warhead exploding in close proximity," said Bronk, analyst in Military Science at the Royal United Services Institute in London.

"But to get a conclusive answer you would have to take the aircraft away and completely reconstruct it as best as you could," he told AFP, as happened with the wreckage of Pan-Am flight 103 after it was blown up over Scotland in 1988.

The Malaysian plane came down in a war zone on Thursday, killing all 298 people on board, 193 of them Dutch.

While forensics experts tasked with identifying the bodies have arrived at the scene, those probing the cause of the crash are still in Kiev "for security reasons," the Dutch Safety Board leading the probe said.

Rebels, civilians and journalists have been walking all over the crash scene, handling objects, while observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe have said some pieces of wreckage have been sawn in half.

Separatists on Tuesday promised to give investigators free access to the site, and a ceasefire has been declared in the immediate area.

Adding to the mammoth task, crash debris is spread over an area of around 12 square miles (35 square kilometres) after the plane disintegrated at an altitude of 33,000 feet (10,000 metres).

The Dutch Safety Board refused to say if or where the plane fuselage might be reconstructed.

"People tend to reduce air accident investigations to the black boxes. But while they're essential, they are not enough," said former test pilot and air crash investigator Robert Galan.

"For instance, in the case of a missile, examining the wreckage allows you to determine whether the impact came from in front or behind the plane," he told AFP.

But, he warned, it is essential for investigators to gain swift access to the site.

"If people have been walking over essential evidence for three days, you will never find it," Galan said.

Investigators will also be looking for pieces of shrapnel or traces of explosives from the missile, which likely exploded a few metres away from the plane to maximise damage.

"However, it is worth remembering, that this crash site does sit in an active war zone. So, there's potential for contamination by explosive residue from other munition sources in the area," said Bronk.

Pro-Russian separatists have been accused of firing a Russian-supplied missile, while Moscow says Kiev shot down the Boeing 777.

Alleged conversations between rebels discussing the shooting down, intercepted by intelligence agencies, as well as satellite images around the time of the crash will be key to identifying who ordered the attack and who pushed the button.

But, said Bronk, "the Russian and the separatist side will always just claim that it is a fake."

"The really conclusive thing will be if eventually satellite imagery is released, showing exactly where the missile launcher was and fired. And also, crucially, where it went after that."

Washington, one of the first to suggest a surface-to-air missile was used, has said it has satellite imagery of the missile launch.

Ben Moores, aeronautical expert at IHS Jane's, said the sound recordings on the black boxes, now in the hands of Malaysian authorities, could help prove what kind of missile was used.

"An air-to-air missile makes a small blast, while a ground-to-air missile makes a much bigger one," he said.


Source : Sapa-AFP /ns
Date : 22 Jul 2014 19:39
 

LazyLion

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REBELS RETURN 80 FEWER BODIES THAN PROMISED FROM MH17, EXPERTS SAY

International monitors on Tuesday said body parts still lay scattered at eastern Ukraine's unsecured crash site of downed flight MH17, as Dutch experts said they were given 80 fewer corpses than promised by the rebels.

"There were human remains that had not been picked up," said Michael Bociurkiw, a spokesman for the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) observer mission after visiting the scene, amid reports of the wreckage being rearranged.

"What struck us is that we did not monitor any recovery activity in place," he said, pointing out that OSCE observers saw human remains in at least two areas at the sprawling crash site in rebel-held territory.

Pro-Russian insurgents said Monday they had released the bodies of 282 victims after they were sent by refrigerated train to the government-controlled town of Kharkiv, some 300 kilometres to the northwest.

But Dutch experts now in possession of the corpses said Tuesday they had only counted 200 on the morgue train.

"We are sure of having 200 bodies and body parts, that is all that I know," said Jan Tuinder, the head of the Dutch delegation told journalists.

Flight MH17 was apparently brought down by a missile on Thursday with 298 people on board, including 193 Dutch citizens.

Five days after the incident, OSCE monitors said they noticed "changes" in the arrangement of the wreckage.

"We did observe changes at the site. The fuselage has been moved. It appears that the cone section is split in two and it appears that the tail fin has been moved," Bociurkiw said.

Western leaders have complained that rebels have been tampering with vital evidence at the site.

But Bociurkiw said there should be no "rush to conclusions" and the changes "could have been part of the effort to recover remains".

Fifteen monitors from the European security body visited the site for a fifth day on Tuesday, accompanied for the first time by a senior official from Malaysian Airlines and by two Malaysian civil aviation experts.

"There was no security perimeter. We also noticed that the vast amount of personal belongings of passengers has been removed from the scene," he added.

"The Malaysian experts observed that the heat from the impact was so intense that it melted the wings," which were made of aluminium, he said.


Source : Sapa-AFP /ns
Date : 22 Jul 2014 21:35
 

Grant

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MH17: Makeshift train morgue now the grisly focus of international tug of war

When Roman showed up for work as usual at the railway station in Torez at 7am on Sunday local time, he was told to couple his diesel locomotive to a five-wagon train in the siding and shunt it to the platform outside the white-painted ticket office.

No one told him what was in the four windowless grey wagons, or where he would be going next.

But these four refrigerator wagons and one guard's van are now the grisly focus of an international tug of war.

Roman's train is the makeshift morgue housing nearly 200 bodies collected from the crash site of Malaysian Airlines flight MH17.

Many of these bodies had lain in the open for two days before they were collected from wheat fields, sunflower plantations and roadsides by a small army of emergency workers, helped by local miners.

The bodies were wrapped in black plastic and watched over by gunmen of the rebel Donetsk People's Republic.

About 100 body bags had been laid next to the country road above the main crash site. They were then loaded on to flatbed trucks driven by rebel militiamen and driven into the night.

Even the drivers said they did not know where they were being taken, and it was only after a night of uncertainty that the rebel leadership revealed the presence of the train.

But uncertainty still remains.

Rebel officials say 196 bodies are on the train. The Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe's observer mission, which visited the makeshift morgue, says that's "unconfirmed".

That number leaves 102 bodies unaccounted for - perhaps unnoticed somewhere in the vast 25km-wide quadrant of fields where they fell, perhaps simply burned up in the blast that brought the Boeing 777 down. There were reports 40 more bodies were taken to the station yesterday.

AP reported last night that local rescue workers had piled 21 black body bags by the side of the road in Grabovo, 15km away. It was unclear how quickly they would be transported to Torez, where the other bodies remained. A train engineer told AP the refrigeration had been off yesterday but it was not immediately clear why. The cooling system was back up and running last night.

The dead have now become objects of an international squabbling match. The Ukrainian Government accused the rebels of spiriting away dozens of bodies and obstructing access to the inspection site. John Kerry, the United States Secretary of State, called the rebels' treatment of the dead "grotesque" yesterday, and accused Russian President Vladimir Putin of failing to live up to promises to ensure access for international observers. Alexander Borodai, the Prime Minister of the self-declared People's Republic of Donetsk, defended the rebels' handling of the casualties, saying leaving the bodies unattended for any longer would have been "inhumane".

For many, the dead have already suffered too many indignities.

While partly malicious, much of the shambles seems simply the result of a woefully under-resourced rescue service stretched thin by war. Torez is an economically depressed mining town of 88,000 and its small units of emergency workers do not have the facilities to deal with such a disaster. Lacking the most basic lifting equipment, they dug through charred wreckage by hand yesterday.

Borodai says the train will not be moved until international inspectors, including teams from countries that lost nationals, arrive. Rumours abound that the train could be sent to Kharkiv, Ukraine's second-largest city 280km to the northwest. But Borodai has also spoken about sending the bodies east into Russia, where he says he "trusts" the authorities to take care of them.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11296984

*****
photos of train (& others) here:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ossed-rubbish-trucks-carted-morgue-train.html
 
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Jola

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Reading between the lines on various reports, there still appears to be some missing bodies.

Based on models of the proximity fuse activation on the missile, vaporisation in the air seems unlikely, although some bodies could have burnt up completely on the ground.

Are are some bodies still lying in fields around the crash site, obscured by vegetation ?
 

Jola

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Wow. If true, it will be interesting to see what the data recorders tell us. Maybe the pilots saw it coming?

Even if they did, it would have been seconds before detonation, no time for any response.

The cockpit voice recorder may reveal something.
 

Drifter

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Wow. If true, it will be interesting to see what the data recorders tell us. Maybe the pilots saw it coming?

Dont think the filght recorders will show anything in the line of a missile hit per se, rather just a catastrophic shutdown of all major systems.
 

Cray

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Wow. If true, it will be interesting to see what the data recorders tell us. Maybe the pilots saw it coming?

From what I have read the impact would most likely have been front and below so they most likely wouldn't have seen it. Not sure if them seeing it would have been better or worse considering there would have been nothing they could do about it :(
 

Ockie

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Even if they did, it would have been seconds before detonation, no time for any response.

The cockpit voice recorder may reveal something.

I actually hope they did not see it coming. Rather let it be quick and they did not even know what hit them instead of that few seconds of absolute terror and horror.
 

Bar0n

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Wow. If true, it will be interesting to see what the data recorders tell us. Maybe the pilots saw it coming?

Doubt it. Missiles are incredibly fast on their own, but the plane was heading towards it as well, so you need to combine both velocities.
 

Jola

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I actually hope they did not see it coming. Rather let it be quick and they did not even know what hit them instead of that few seconds of absolute terror and horror.

Agreed.
 

Arthur

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Ukraine, not "the Ukraine"?
Though modern usage has dropped the definite article in some country names, there's a good historical reason for it. "Netherlands" means "low countries" and for several centuries those tongues with a definite article in their language (English, German, etc) refer to the country as "The Netherlands" - as do most of the Press articles quoted above. Similarly, "Ukraine" means "border lands", and for the same reason the definite article was used, though some local languages and Russian apparently don't have a definite article. Same goes for "The Argentine" (silver), The Congo (to distinguish it from the eponymous river), "The United States of America", "The Transvaal", "The Free State", etc.

These days anything goes, so pick what suits your taste.
 
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GreGorGy

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Though modern usage has dropped the definite article in some country names, there's a good historical reason for it. "Netherlands" means "low countries" and for several centuries those tongues with a definite article in their language (English, German, etc) refer to the country as "The Netherlands" - as do most of the Press articles quoted above. Similarly, "Ukraine" means "border lands", and for the same reason the definite article was used, though some local languages and Russian apparently don't have a definite article. Same goes for "The Argentine" (silver), The Congo (to distinguish it from the eponymous river), "The United States of America", "The Transvaal", "The Free State", etc.

These days anything goes, so pick what suits your taste.

No, not quite. Historical significance, etc

http://time.com/12597/the-ukraine-or-ukraine/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_of_Ukraine

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-18233844


Respect the people, not your lack of taste.
 
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