Mirror (non)Trading International 2 - The Fallout

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Wary GOM

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Further to the request for proof of allegations.

The SEC of Texas, USA, was sufficiently convinced that MTI is an illegally operated MLM that in August MTI was served with an immediate Cease and Desist operating order. MTI has repeatedly stated that it deals with an intangible asset. It therefore is NOT a MLM like HerbalLife. Even Crowd1 scrapes under the wire by providing educational material in return for member's fees.

Although MTI is registered as a Pty, it isn't operating as one and therefore its registration is meaningless.

Many of the promotional presentations, recruitment meetings and written materials on the company do constitute giving financial advice.

MTI is deliberately misleading investors in saying that bitcoin is not a currency and therefore MTI's business does not fall within the remit of financial regulatory bodies. Whether bitcoin is a currency or not is irrelevant. By the tests applied by regulatory bodies, bitcoin is firmly a security: the investors give it to MTI in order that MTI will increase the value of the bitcoin. MTI is based on the slogan "Grow your bitcoin". Neither investor nor MTI can pretend that they are not trading assets. Hence SEC's or their equivalent in different countries DO have regulatory powers over MTI. Furthermore, taxation IS an issue and some MTI Directors and promotors have been misleading members as to the tax situation of the member and MTI.

There is no proof that MTI is a Ponzi scheme. However, nor has MTI yet proven by externally audited financial statements that it is not a Ponzi scheme.
 
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JohnStarr

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Question: Anyone involved in this Ponzi scheme...do they get nailed legally for getting involved? Or does the law let them get punished sufficiently when they lose it all?
 
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notayoba

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Wary GOM said:
Further to the request for proof of allegations.

The SEC of Texas, USA, was sufficiently convinced that MTI is an illegally operated MLM that in August MTI was served with an immediate Cease and Desist operating order. MTI has repeatedly stated that it deals with an intangible asset. It therefore is NOT a MLM like HerbalLife. Even Crowd1 scrapes under the wire by providing educational material in return for member's fees.

Although MTI is registered as a Pty, it isn't operating as one and therefore its registration is meaningless.

Many of the promotional presentations, recruitment meetings and written materials on the company do constitute giving financial advice.

MTI is deliberately misleading investors in saying that bitcoin is not a currency and therefore MTI's business does not fall within the remit of financial regulatory bodies. Whether bitcoin is a currency or not is irrelevant. By the tests applied by regulatory bodies, bitcoin is firmly a security: the investors give it to MTI in order that MTI will increase the value of the bitcoin. MTI is based on the slogan "Grow your bitcoin". Neither investor nor MTI can pretend that they are not trading assets. Hence SEC's or their equivalent in different countries DO have regulatory powers over MTI. Furthermore, taxation IS an issue and some MTI Directors and promotors have been misleading members as to the tax situation of the member and MTI.

There is no proof that MTI is a Ponzi scheme. However, nor has MTI yet proven by externally audited financial statements that it is not a Ponzi scheme.
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Further to this, Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. These people are essentially claiming they are the best traders in human history by a factor of about 100. 1% daily, compounded comes to something like 3700% annually. And 1% per day is roughly their claim.

So do I think that 1.) a Lindtball muncher from Durban, and a dimwit from Polokwane are the most accomplished financial geniuses in history, or 2.) It's a scam.

I'm going with 2.)

Edit: Not only do they not provide extraordinary evidence, they provide no evidence at all. And it would be so simple to share the public key. But apparently it requires a specialist team of crypto experts to copy and paste.
 
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Venator

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notayoba said:
Further to this, Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. These people are essentially claiming they are the best traders in human history by a factor of about 100. 1% daily, compounded comes to something like 3700% annually. And 1% per day is roughly their claim.

So do I think that 1.) a Lindtball muncher from Durban, and a dimwit from Polokwane are the most accomplished financial geniuses in history, or 2.) It's a scam.

I'm going with 2.)
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Oh if you actually dig into their claims you'll realize that their daily profitability claims are much much higher than 1% per day, but the manner in which they post their daily trades intentionally obscures this.

EDIT : a 1% per day profit compounded over 260 days (only trading on weekdays for an entire year) would get you a final profit of over 1200% :ROFL:
 
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newby_investor

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ZA_Chamber said:
Question: Anyone involved in this Ponzi scheme...do they get nailed legally for getting involved? Or does the law let them get punished sufficiently when they lose it all?
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This has been discussed before. IIRC it's likely that the authorities will just leave the small-fry be. If anyone actually does time in prison it'll be the management and the biggest promoters.
 
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Wary GOM

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newby_investor said:
This has been discussed before. IIRC it's likely that the authorities will just leave the small-fry be. If anyone actually does time in prison it'll be the management and the biggest promoters.
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SARS will still be interested at least in any profits made from the scheme by anyone, small or big. From an investor's point of view, the important thing is that you invested a security (bitcoin) and obtained some return (bitcoin); so your asset either grew or didn't. GET A TAX CONSULTANT AND INFORM THEM FULLY ABOUT YOUR INVESTMENT, RETURN AND NATURE OF THE BUSINESS.
 
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newby_investor

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Wary GOM said:
SARS will still be interested at least in any profits made from the scheme by anyone, small or big. From an investor's point of view, the important thing is that you invested a security (bitcoin) and obtained some return (bitcoin); so your asset either grew or didn't. GET A TAX CONSULTANT AND INFORM THEM FULLY ABOUT YOUR INVESTMENT, RETURN AND NATURE OF THE BUSINESS.
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True, but most will not make money from this. When the scheme collapses, it's gone, and they'll have lost whatever they put in but didn't pull out.
 
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upup

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Yesterday my wife spoke to someone, the lady told her how she and all her friends are making big money now, like R50 000 per family invested. My wife does not know mti but ask her if this good place is not a ponzi, and she said no. After she told me , my and I told my wife about MTI she told the lady , and the lady insist that mti is a good company. I told my wife to ask her where does mti get the money to pay investors, and she said from new investors. I told my wife, "so ask her , how does a pozi works". Problem is this thing is growing fast, and bigger fall harder.
 
Venator

Venator

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upup said:
Yesterday my wife spoke to someone, the lady told her how she and all her friends are making big money now, like R50 000 per family invested. My wife does not know mti but ask her if this good place is not a ponzi, and she said no. After she told me , my and I told my wife about MTI she told the lady , and the lady insist that mti is a good company. I told my wife to ask her where does mti get the money to pay investors, and she said from new investors. I told my wife, "so ask her , how does a pozi works". Problem is this thing is growing fast, and bigger fall harder.
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Unfortunately, the vast majority of people think a scam is this:
1. you give someone money
2. *poof* that money is gone and you never hear from them again

So when it comes to Ponzi schemes, and they get payouts, then they think it's obviously not a scam because number 2 did not happen.

It's amazing how much trouble people can save themselves if they just observe better and even just read a damn Wikipedia page of how Ponzi schemes work.

To those of us on the outside, watching MTI's process unfold exactly step-by-step from the Ponzi playbook, we are baffled how people cannot see the obvious signs.
People honestly, really do have to be incredibly stupid or exceptionally greedy to get involved with this stuff.
 
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notayoba

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Venator said:
Unfortunately, the vast majority of people think a scam is this:
1. you give someone money
2. *poof* that money is gone and you never hear from them again

So when it comes to Ponzi schemes, and they get payouts, then they think it's obviously not a scam because number 2 did not happen.

It's amazing how much trouble people can save themselves if they just observe better and even just read a damn Wikipedia page of how Ponzi schemes work.

To those of us on the outside, watching MTI's process unfold exactly step-by-step from the Ponzi playbook, we are baffled how people cannot see the obvious signs.
People honestly, really do have to be incredibly stupid or exceptionally greedy to get involved with this stuff.
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I think a large percentage of the participants know it's a scam. They just hope to make a quick buck and pull out before the collapse. They might actually make some money, and due to MTI's poor record keeping and non-existent KYC in the beginning, they'll probably get away with it. These are your serial ponzi types, that hop from scam to scam, and MLM scheme to scheme.

The ones getting in now, and the true believers that just keep 'investing' more are screwed though, so are the ones that cashed out after the KYC got implemented, they will have to pay back the money eventually.
 
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