Moving away from Liberty Retirement Annuity

kennedym

Active Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
85
Hi guys

My girlfriend and I are relooking at our RA's with Liberty, we are juniors in this, please bear with this. My girlfriend has been paying R1200 toward her RA for the last 10 years, if I do the math, thats around R144000 cash, but looking at her investment statement, the total investment value is only R102 000, what i miss? The advisor says its long term but if you losing money over 10 years, that's a red light right?
We also started paying more attention to fees, her fees look ridiculously high compared to what I have seen on google.
1 year is 4.1%, 3 years is 4.1%, 5 years is 4.0, and term to maturity 30 years 4 months is 3.6% taken from EAC document.:eek:

My liberty ra has the same sort of view, I have been in it for 4 years, and my investment values is pretty much what I put in and my fees are also very high at 3.2%, I am assured however that this all looks good.

These are the funds we are invested in:

RA Allan Gray Balanced
RA LA Excel MM Mod
RA Coronation Balanced Plus
RA Excelsior MM Mod Aggressive
RA Coronation Capital Plus
RA Investec Managed
RA LA Excel CPI Plus

Do you guys think that I am panicking unnecessarily?
If not, how can I move away from Liberty, I am not sure what options there are and how to approach this because I don't feel Ican trust the advisors we currently have, I have been googling alot and am hoping to get more info here.
I was thinking of maybe moving to Sygnia and/or 10X, any other suggestions welcome.
From what I read on google, Coronation and Allan Gray should be fine to keep? but even so, i think i would rather manage that on my own to cut the fees. So am wondering how to get away from Liberty without losing more money as it seems.
 

Mista_Mobsta

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
1,863
Move as fast as you can - these "Investment Advisers" are basically using other managers and charging you a big portion in fees on top. Most people (in my opinion) purely use the RA as a tax break tool but if you are losing more on your RA than your tax break returns then limit your RA contributions to max out the tax return and invest the excess elsewhere. Stock markets have taken a massive hit during COVID so that may explain some of the negative returns but over the past couple of years the JSE has not been a real solid investment compared to offshore ETF's like S&P, FTSE etc
 

mervman

Active Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
56
Hi guys

My girlfriend and I are relooking at our RA's with Liberty, we are juniors in this, please bear with this. My girlfriend has been paying R1200 toward her RA for the last 10 years, if I do the math, thats around R144000 cash, but looking at her investment statement, the total investment value is only R102 000, what i miss? The advisor says its long term but if you losing money over 10 years, that's a red light right?
We also started paying more attention to fees, her fees look ridiculously high compared to what I have seen on google.
1 year is 4.1%, 3 years is 4.1%, 5 years is 4.0, and term to maturity 30 years 4 months is 3.6% taken from EAC document.:eek:

My liberty ra has the same sort of view, I have been in it for 4 years, and my investment values is pretty much what I put in and my fees are also very high at 3.2%, I am assured however that this all looks good.

These are the funds we are invested in:

RA Allan Gray Balanced
RA LA Excel MM Mod
RA Coronation Balanced Plus
RA Excelsior MM Mod Aggressive
RA Coronation Capital Plus
RA Investec Managed
RA LA Excel CPI Plus

Do you guys think that I am panicking unnecessarily?
If not, how can I move away from Liberty, I am not sure what options there are and how to approach this because I don't feel Ican trust the advisors we currently have, I have been googling alot and am hoping to get more info here.
I was thinking of maybe moving to Sygnia and/or 10X, any other suggestions welcome.
From what I read on google, Coronation and Allan Gray should be fine to keep? but even so, i think i would rather manage that on my own to cut the fees. So am wondering how to get away from Liberty without losing more money as it seems.
Those fees are theft. Move them to a low cost company like Sygnia. Go with the skeleton range. Has all in costs of around 0.7%.
 

Gtx Gaming

Gtx Gaming
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
20,461
Move it, I started the process of moving my momentum policy. The only person making money is the financial advisor, they do not care if you are losing money. They still get paid if you loose money.
 

zerocool2009

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2009
Messages
4,791
I bloody hope you didnt PAY any lump sum in !!! If you did, your fees doubled (ouch). Been in that same boat.

My advice : GET OUT !!!

If I can advise you ... work out when is your next bonus (as it is every 5 years). TAKE note, even with the BS growth, Liberty will ask MASSIVE fees for that growth too (been there, got my F-U T-shirt) !

To answer yourself, you can do a section 14 (you are moving your RA from one provider to another). Take note, once you move it, you cant topup it. As you need to start a NEW one (that is the only crap).

Look at Sygnia (Skeleton 70 product)
 
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kennedym

Active Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
85
Those fees are theft. Move them to a low cost company like Sygnia. Go with the skeleton range. Has all in costs of around 0.7%.
Waiting for them to respond, had a couple questions about some things on their website which i honestly don't understand like these:

Fund size
R 1 519 million

Regulation 28
Compliant

Benchmark
48% SWIX | 13% ALBI | 11% STEFI Call | 22% MSCI AC | 4% Barclays Global AGG bond | 2% Global cash
 

kennedym

Active Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
85
Move as fast as you can - these "Investment Advisers" are basically using other managers and charging you a big portion in fees on top. Most people (in my opinion) purely use the RA as a tax break tool but if you are losing more on your RA than your tax break returns then limit your RA contributions to max out the tax return and invest the excess elsewhere. Stock markets have taken a massive hit during COVID so that may explain some of the negative returns but over the past couple of years the JSE has not been a real solid investment compared to offshore ETF's like S&P, FTSE etc
Yeah, feels very unethical to me.
I have contacted 10x and sygnia, will likely go with one or both of them.

Who did you go with?
 

Mista_Mobsta

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
1,863
Yeah, feels very unethical to me.
I have contacted 10x and sygnia, will likely go with one or both of them.

Who did you go with?
Have RA with 10X and Sygnia and a very long term Allan Gray Orbis

Rest of my funds are split between Tymebank savings and TFSA ETF's and some offshore ETF's for long term view on SA
 

Nerfherder

Honorary Master
Joined
Apr 21, 2008
Messages
25,549
I bloody hope you didnt PAY any lump sum in !!! If you did, your fees doubled (ouch). Been in that same boat.

My advice : GET OUT !!!

If I can advise you ... work out when is your next bonus (as it is every 5 years). TAKE note, even with the BS growth, Liberty will ask MASSIVE fees for that growth too (been there, got my F-U T-shirt) !

To answer yourself, you can do a section 14 (you are moving your RA from one provider to another). Take note, once you move it, you cant topup it. As you need to start a NEW one (that is the only crap).

Look at Sygnia (Skeleton 70 product)
What kind of fees did you end up paying when you moved from liberty.

I have an RA with them (+- R200k) that I want to merge with a 10x RA I have.
I got the Liberty one when I first started working, my current employer has a corporate scheme with 10x that we get as a mandatory benefit. I'm happy with that just don't want to take two RA's.

When I asked my Liberty adviser about moving he said "I can't do that" - I'm not sure if he meant its not transferable or that I would get a massive early cancellation fee .
 

Drifter

Honorary Master
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
19,837
Your advisor should do it for you, but expect hassles as he will lose commission.
 

Mista_Mobsta

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
1,863
What kind of fees did you end up paying when you moved from liberty.

I have an RA with them (+- R200k) that I want to merge with a 10x RA I have.
I got the Liberty one when I first started working, my current employer has a corporate scheme with 10x that we get as a mandatory benefit. I'm happy with that just don't want to take two RA's.

When I asked my Liberty adviser about moving he said "I can't do that" - I'm not sure if he meant its not transferable or that I would get a massive early cancellation fee .
Ask your Liberty advisor how section 14 of the Pension Funds Act applies to your portfolio and how it impacts you regarding fees etc. You are legally allowed to transfer RA to a different service provider but each contract will be different in terms of potential costs/penalties applicable to the registrar and/or companies involved
 
Last edited:

kennedym

Active Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
85
Have RA with 10X and Sygnia and a very long term Allan Gray Orbis

Rest of my funds are split between Tymebank savings and TFSA ETF's and some offshore ETF's for long term view on SA
i was thinking very similar, split between 10x and sygnia and then move my current liberty funds to allan grey.
 

kennedym

Active Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2016
Messages
85
Where do you initiate this from ? Liberty ? or a 3rd party ?
I spoke to Brett at 10x, they send you forms with section 14 transfer instructions, and they will handle it. These are the steps i was emailed:

Section 14 Transfer: Liberty
Step 1: You need to request a transfer instruction form from Liberty (via their call centre), complete this and send back to Liberty.
Step 2: Complete your 10X Investment application - either online here, or, email your forms to us with your supporting FICA documents.
Step 3: We request the Section 14 document from Liberty. On receipt, our Principal Officer signs off on this, and we return it to Liberty.
Step 4: We then ask Liberty to pay your benefit across to us, with proof of payment.
Step 5: On receipt, we finalise the investment and issue you an online certificate, confirming the transfer.
 

nivo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
127
I spoke to Brett at 10x, they send you forms with section 14 transfer instructions, and they will handle it. These are the steps i was emailed:

Section 14 Transfer: Liberty
Step 1: You need to request a transfer instruction form from Liberty (via their call centre), complete this and send back to Liberty.
Step 2: Complete your 10X Investment application - either online here, or, email your forms to us with your supporting FICA documents.
Step 3: We request the Section 14 document from Liberty. On receipt, our Principal Officer signs off on this, and we return it to Liberty.
Step 4: We then ask Liberty to pay your benefit across to us, with proof of payment.
Step 5: On receipt, we finalise the investment and issue you an online certificate, confirming the transfer.
Hi,
How do we get hold of Brett.
 

the eskimo

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 5, 2007
Messages
462
Another good guy in terms of transfers at 10x is Alvin. He did my transfer into a 10x preservation fund.

I can also send you his email.
 

Grouter

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2007
Messages
4,039
To answer yourself, you can do a section 14 (you are moving your RA from one provider to another). Take note, once you move it, you cant topup it. As you need to start a NEW one (that is the only crap).
Assuming you meant "you can't top it up" : Still, what does this mean? The funds are frozen? You can't make any more contributions? Till maturity? I find this difficult to believe.
We just did a section 14 transfer, from Old Mutual to Sanlam, and were given no indication of anything of this sort...
 
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