Moving away from Liberty Retirement Annuity

Grouter

Executive Member
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Sep 7, 2007
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5,259
Ok, lets give you some homework. Find out what is your EAC (total cost per year for that RA)
Thanks for your concern, but this is actually my wife's RA. Toys were thrown from here to Timbuktu when she discovered the initial (Covid-19) losses some months ago. Broker got shat upon, investment got section 14'ed, toys were recovered. Let's just say that, for the time being, if one values one's life in this household at the moment, one does not mention "RA"....Capisch?
 

B-1

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Apr 17, 2020
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10x and sygnia use index trackers, as i understand it, alot is offshore which probably explains why they are doing so well and have low fees. And from what i think i know, liberty for example is managed, so becomes expensive? If anyone knows better on this, please comment.

Mine is only managed once in a while when there is a review. During the start of Covid my advisor phoned and said its time for a review and we moved as much as we could offshore and made a few other changes. But they still invest in the same things I do with my own investments. The whole active vs passive investment is also a bit of a non issue as there are several multimillion prizes out there that haven't been won for active investors who think they can do better than passive investment.
 

kennedym

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Feb 22, 2016
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Re-gear bonds (as in pay it off), borrow against it again, buy property CASH .... and repeat.

Ok, do any of you know what is a flexi bond ? Its the most powerful tool in "good debt"
yeah, thats sounds like a good idea, i have absa bonds, paid off but the bonds are open, can use that money however i like. Will look into it.
 

kennedym

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Mine is only managed once in a while when there is a review. During the start of Covid my advisor phoned and said its time for a review and we moved as much as we could offshore and made a few other changes. But they still invest in the same things I do with my own investments. The whole active vs passive investment is also a bit of a non issue as there are several multimillion prizes out there that haven't been won for active investors who think they can do better than passive investment.
With active, like Liberty, that will increase costs to right?
 

B-1

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With active, like Liberty, that will increase costs to right?
Yep, there is a person actively looking at your investment so they charge for that and a bunch of other admin.
 

kennedym

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Feb 22, 2016
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100
Just got feedback from Liberty on the section 14 move fees:

Investment value: R296765.62
Less activity fee: R280.00
Less early termination fee: R5955.31
Section 14 transfer value: R290 530.31

Expensive lesson in fees with Liberty, stay away! Will be moving this to either Allan Grey or Sygnia. Sygnia might be a better choice considering their fees, should be able to recover more quickly.

Also just learnt that the interest to earn is in the negative on the funds i am investing in, so am actually losing money. WTF! Nobody there says anything about it.
Quoted from Liberty: "We confirm that the negative average rate of return on the portfolio invested into reduces growth of the investment value."
This plus their fees, feels like im sponsoring a charity.

Don't use Liberty and don't trust Financial Advisors. :mad:
 

Stonemason

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2017
Messages
718
Just got feedback from Liberty on the section 14 move fees:

Investment value: R296765.62
Less activity fee: R280.00
Less early termination fee: R5955.31
Section 14 transfer value: R290 530.31
One uninformed decision and it will take you years to make up the losses. Do not blame Liberty, blame the markets. I can assure you that in the current climate you will not do better at Allan Grey or Sygnia.
 

kennedym

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One uninformed decision and it will take you years to make up the losses. Do not blame Liberty, blame the markets. I can assure you that in the current climate you will not do better at Allan Grey or Sygnia.
I know the markets are not good, but i disagree that i wouldn't be better off, just on the fees alone, is already an improvement.
 

backstreetboy

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 15, 2011
Messages
31,683
One uninformed decision and it will take you years to make up the losses. Do not blame Liberty, blame the markets. I can assure you that in the current climate you will not do better at Allan Grey or Sygnia.
Lol what complete drivel. Sygnia Skeleton 70 is up 4.9% this year so far.
 

Stonemason

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Mar 13, 2017
Messages
718
Lol what complete drivel. Sygnia Skeleton 70 is up 4.9% this year so far.
Yes, others have shown similar growth over the past few months but that was from a very low base. It was merely a partial recovery from the past two year's losses. Read a little bit wider and you will not make a fool of yourself by accusing others of talking drivel
 

kennedym

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Yes, others have shown similar growth over the past few months but that was from a very low base. It was merely a partial recovery from the past two year's losses. Read a little bit wider and you will not make a fool of yourself by accusing others of talking drivel
What recommendations would you give? Take my gf's investment for instance, 10 years long, if she put the money under her mattress she would have about 40% more than what there is now. Her fees are crazy high.

My thing is, if you are paying for someone to manage your account to ensure its ok, ie the Financial Advisor, I don't understand why Sygnia's approach with no financial advice is working out better for investors, sure the investor needs to know what they are doing but if you are paying someone to do this, why are we getting burnt. These financial advisors have degrees and bla bla bla, but I honestly don't trust it's worth given what both myself and my gf experienced with 2 different Liberty advisors.
 

backstreetboy

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Yes, others have shown similar growth over the past few months but that was from a very low base. It was merely a partial recovery from the past two year's losses. Read a little bit wider and you will not make a fool of yourself by accusing others of talking drivel
Really? Just comparing three not going to bother going further.
1600867199767.png
 

surface

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Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
21,501
Really? Just comparing three not going to bother going further.
View attachment 920433

You left out the 5 year part. :p All 3 are long term funds, right? I reckon over a 10 year period, they would do generally be in the same ballpark. Also, Sygnia 70 is recent compared to other 2. Coronation balanced launch year 96, AG balanced launch year 99, sygnia 2013.

1600898203992.png
 
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Stonemason

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Mar 13, 2017
Messages
718
What recommendations would you give? Take my gf's investment for instance, 10 years long, if she put the money under her mattress she would have about 40% more than what there is now. Her fees are crazy high.
Sorry, I am not qualified to give financial advice. But, what I can tell you is that on such a long term investment as a RA, you leave it where it is and you never mess around with it. At most you can stop your monthly contributions but you never move the money about.
 

backstreetboy

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Sorry, I am not qualified to give financial advice. But, what I can tell you is that on such a long term investment as a RA, you leave it where it is and you never mess around with it. At most you can stop your monthly contributions but you never move the money about.
Yeah keep paying that excessively high fees and get subpar performance.
 

supersunbird

Honorary Master
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Oct 1, 2005
Messages
58,463
Hi guys

My girlfriend and I are relooking at our RA's with Liberty, we are juniors in this, please bear with this. My girlfriend has been paying R1200 toward her RA for the last 10 years, if I do the math, thats around R144000 cash, but looking at her investment statement, the total investment value is only R102 000, what i miss? The advisor says its long term but if you losing money over 10 years, that's a red light right?
We also started paying more attention to fees, her fees look ridiculously high compared to what I have seen on google.
1 year is 4.1%, 3 years is 4.1%, 5 years is 4.0, and term to maturity 30 years 4 months is 3.6% taken from EAC document.:eek:

My liberty ra has the same sort of view, I have been in it for 4 years, and my investment values is pretty much what I put in and my fees are also very high at 3.2%, I am assured however that this all looks good.

These are the funds we are invested in:

RA Allan Gray Balanced
RA LA Excel MM Mod
RA Coronation Balanced Plus
RA Excelsior MM Mod Aggressive
RA Coronation Capital Plus
RA Investec Managed
RA LA Excel CPI Plus

Do you guys think that I am panicking unnecessarily?
If not, how can I move away from Liberty, I am not sure what options there are and how to approach this because I don't feel Ican trust the advisors we currently have, I have been googling alot and am hoping to get more info here.
I was thinking of maybe moving to Sygnia and/or 10X, any other suggestions welcome.
From what I read on google, Coronation and Allan Gray should be fine to keep? but even so, i think i would rather manage that on my own to cut the fees. So am wondering how to get away from Liberty without losing more money as it seems.


The reason she is down on value is because of the fees. Need to switch asap, I am not negative in what I put in in any of my 7.5 year with cheaper retirement funds.
 

supersunbird

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Oct 1, 2005
Messages
58,463
It is a bad time for any form of investment. The JSE is unstable and in the past five years added very little value. Putting your money in the bank was worth it until Covid 19 struck and now the only people who make money from the interest you receive is the taxman. The same is true for property. Tenants no longer pay their rent and many landlords are starting to panic.

The worst thing you can do it to start messing with your RA's. If you are young then there is lots of time for the investment to grow and if you are older you stand to lose more.

Do not check on your investments every day, you will get depressed and then you start making stupid decision. Check it once a year and then make informed decisions.
Even on 10 years you must not have less than you put in. Reason for that situation is the fees that OPs GF is paying, changes must me made now, not later.
 
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