Mthethwa asks SA Rugby to take action after eight players refuse to bend the knee in support of BLM in England

[Fulcrum29]

So when did this whole thing become a national requirement again? Is this now ANC policy?

No, but it will soon become a matter which is within the public’s best interest. As it stands it is best to wait on SA Rugby to make their statement on how they are going to deliver their message. They said that it will be addressed the day they return to the pitch.

In the case, the resolution isn't appropriate there will be a national dialogue (or say they usually say) which is to generally 'enhance' said policies governing participation.

 

[Willie Trombone]

In the case, the resolution isn't appropriate there will be a national dialogue (or say they usually say) which is to generally 'enhance' said policies governing participation.

National dialogue? I doubt the powers that be know how to conduct one of those.

 

[Mrcricket]

I'm on the left myself but taking action against the players would be counter-productive. It would be better to enter into dialogue with them to find out why they feel the way they do.

 

[Vrotappel]

I'm on the left myself but taking action against the players would be counter-productive. It would be better to enter into dialogue with them to find out why they feel the way they do.

Why? Why not respect their decision? Who the **** gives BLM the right to dictate?

 

[Fulcrum29]

National dialogue? I doubt the powers that be know how to conduct one of those.

Because it is better to go with a narrative. This entire situation saddens me, and they shouldn't drag the #StrongTogether motto into this. The Springboks won the World Cup under severe criticism. Etzebeth, Kriel, bomb squad, etc. all in the attempt to divide our nation and push against our chances at succeeding in Japan. The whole world reported on the anti-Springbok sentiment, and many a politician made their opinion known, but damn when we got our opportunity to take the cup home these very same politicians got on a plane to Japan to 'support' the Springboks.

The Springboks are a united team. People can say what they want about the Blue Bull supporters, but those supporters damn well love their black players.

The day we stop Judging each other in this country is the day the more people will stand together against racism. We have many elephants in the room to deal with, and all these elephants should be treated equally. Unity is what matters here.

 

[Vrotappel]

Because it is better to go with a narrative. This entire situation saddens me, and they shouldn't drag the #StrongTogether motto into this. The Springboks won the World Cup under severe criticism. Etzebeth, Kriel, bomb squad, etc. all in the attempt to divide our nation and push against our chances at succeeding in Japan. The whole world reported on the anti-Springbok sentiment, and many a politician made their opinion known, but damn when we got our opportunity to take the cup home these very same politicians got on a plane to Japan to 'support' the Springboks.

The Springboks are a united team. People can say what they want about the Blue Bull supporters, but those supporters damn well love their black players.

The day we stop Judging each other in this country is the day the more people will stand together against racism. We have many elephants in the room to deal with, and all these elephants should be treated equally. Unity is what matters here.

The fact is that there is a large group of people who have zero interest in harmony. They have zero interest even in redistribution. They have hate and revenge, that is all that matters to them. BLM expose them for what they are.

 

[Willie Trombone]

I'm on the left myself but taking action against the players would be counter-productive. It would be better to enter into dialogue with them to find out why they feel the way they do.

Why is that even necessary?

 

[wbot]

I remember a time when politics had no place in any sport

 

[Willie Trombone]

The Springboks are a united team. People can say what they want about the Blue Bull supporters, but those supporters damn well love their black players.

Politicians don't care, it doesn't make noise for them. They want empty pots to clang to look relevant.

 

[boramk]

So either you are a racist or you're just ignorant if you don't take a knee?

Well I, for one, feel truly vindicated in knowing that you feel there should be no punishment for refusing, however.

Yeah, that's my hot take on this issue. Because if you are not a racist, you can understand why players will bend the knee. If what I said doesn't make sense to you, it's because you are ignorant of what the movement is about.

Also you can't be upset at players bending the knee and at the same time be upset at players who are forced to bend the knee. If you truly believe in freedom of expression and rights, then you have to agree players are able to bend the knee as much as they are not.

Unfortunately what you believe and what is playing out around the world is not aligned.

If you are referring to the looting that has happened in US cities then I can see why you'd equate BLM with that but it's not equivalent. Opportunistic looting isn't part of the creed of BLM and it's a real simple shortcut to take mentally to disregard the group and their message just because looting is happening. Which, neither BLM agrees with.

Who is doing the actual attacking though.
You are in some serious denial if you cannot see the BLM movement for what it truly is.

Nobody is saying every BLM protester is peaceful. I'm not saying every cop is a racist pig.

All of you here with your simplistic black and white views on something as complicated as race relations in the US aren't think about the nuances or context I can promise you that. And honestly I can't blame you. I grew up in South Africa, my friends were predominantly white and I grew up with a specific point of view that is shared by the majority in this forum or at least this thread.

It took introspection and spending the last 9 years in the US to have my views shift. Whether it was having black friends here telling me about their experiences growing up or having a black South African friend go to university with me here and telling me about the contrasts between his experience being black in SA vs America.

Nothing to do with being marxists who want to end capitalism?

Yeah I never felt the need to seize the means of production from the bourgeois to the proletariat
whenever I state or think that black people's lives matter. I'll let you know though if this changes.

You see the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is the following because their name says they are:
A democracy
For the people.
A republic.

Don't actually question what they stand for or anything like that.

Look man, do black people's lives matter? If yes, you are for this group.

If you are part of BLM protests, and you go around saying looting should happen, like it happened in my home town by this "activist" named Ariel Atkins, people won't support you. I have black friends who disagreed with what she said.

I'm not going to let a small minority of people dilute the overarching goal of what I think is the right movement. You can agree with what a movement is saying without agreeing with what some of the "members" may think. Case inpoint, a few years ago with the Fees Must Fall movement - I agreed that colonial names or statues can be problematic to black students (I know Cecil Rhodes statue means nothing to you or me, or maybe can mean your roots if you are an Anglo-Saffa) as black students are the ones who have to face names and figures in the past who unfairly treated their people. It's called empathy, we'd get along a lot better if we put ourselves in other people's shoes instead of brandishing them as marxist rebels or whatever the heck. BUT, should they have been blocking students from attending lectures? Hell no.

I'll give you another personal POV: I'm ethnically Korean, Korea was colonized by Japan, Koreans had to take Japanese names, learn Japanese, and were raped, killed and exploited as Africans have under European powers. Do you really think Koreans would be ok with places or buildings named after Emporer Meiji for example? Yea it's a no.

Anyways you guys got my thoughts on the matter, this thread isn't about BLM though, but about bending the knee. As far as I'm concerend, Nathi Mthethwa can go f**k himself.

 

[LazyLion]

Surely that's a personal choice? He's not going to win this one.

 

[Willie Trombone]

Yeah, that's my hot take on this issue. Because if you are not a racist, you can understand why players will bend the knee. If what I said doesn't make sense to you, it's because you are ignorant of what the movement is about.

What is the movement about again? Is it about politicising sport? If not then why is it being used to do just that?
What's next? Detention barracks for religious objectors?

 

[boramk]

Ok.
So in a nutshell. You base your opinion on your own feelings, not actual facts.

You create boogeymen and push these images onto others in order to confirm your feelings.

So gaslighting yourself.

The world isn't as bad as you think it is.

I'm sure you know what straw-manning is because I'm sure you've been told countless times that is what you do.

So many questions

1) What are the facts?
2) Who is this boogeyman now?

And no the world isn't bad either. Never said it was, I'm pretty happy but I understand some people have a different experience I guess and it's upsetting to you if this is pointed out.

Anyways don't bother replying, I've seen your posts and I know you're not an intelligent dude nor can you actually have a fruitful discussion.

 

[boramk]

What is the movement about again? Is it about politicising sport? If not then why is it being used to do just that?
What's next? Detention barracks for religious objectors?

Ah the slippery slope fallacy. you're right man, detention barracks after we let players kneel, and then afterwards, they will take away our rights to vote, and then after that they will make us all have the same name!

Tired of saying this, BLM is about having people acknowledge black lives matter. Because this country kills black people disproportionately. Because my black friends were given talks as children not to give attitude to cops. Because my black friends were taught to always have their hands in visible places if ever stopped. Because black people are killed by cops, disproportionally. And they shouldn't, because black lives matter. Real simple, no idea why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

You seem upset about the fact that the Boks have to kneel, then be upset that other's are being told not to. You can't be a hypocrite.

 

[Flanders]

Yeah, that's my hot take on this issue. Because if you are not a racist, you can understand why players will bend the knee. If what I said doesn't make sense to you, it's because you are ignorant of what the movement is about.

Also you can't be upset at players bending the knee and at the same time be upset at players who are forced to bend the knee. If you truly believe in freedom of expression and rights, then you have to agree players are able to bend the knee as much as they are not.

Hey, if people want to bend then bend...plead...grovel away. I'd never demand anyone NOT do it. Do what you want. Freedom of choice and all that.

This next point doesn't pertain to you necessarily, Boramk, but I can't help but wonder how many of the benders would have the same mindset if the movement was WLM. My guess is a fat, round, ZERO.

 

[Deleted member 369928]

Ah the slippery slope fallacy. you're right man, detention barracks after we let players kneel, and then afterwards, they will take away our rights to vote, and then after that they will make us all have the same name!

Tired of saying this, BLM is about having people acknowledge black lives matter. Because this country kills black people disproportionately. Because my black friends were given talks as children not to give attitude to cops. Because my black friends were taught to always have their hands in visible places if ever stopped. Because black people are killed by cops, disproportionally. And they shouldn't, because black lives matter. Real simple, no idea why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

You seem upset about the fact that the Boks have to kneel, then be upset that other's are being told not to. You can't be a hypocrite.

Actually they are not killed disproportionately. But if you actually did any research on death by cop you would know that. About 90% of black people killed by a cop is by a black cop.

 

[Jabulani22]

Ah the slippery slope fallacy. you're right man, detention barracks after we let players kneel, and then afterwards, they will take away our rights to vote, and then after that they will make us all have the same name!

Tired of saying this, BLM is about having people acknowledge black lives matter. Because this country kills black people disproportionately. Because my black friends were given talks as children not to give attitude to cops. Because my black friends were taught to always have their hands in visible places if ever stopped. Because black people are killed by cops, disproportionally. And they shouldn't, because black lives matter. Real simple, no idea why this is such a difficult concept to understand.

You seem upset about the fact that the Boks have to kneel, then be upset that other's are being told not to. You can't be a hypocrite.

They also commit a disproportionate amount of crime in the USA , this is why they are interacting with cops at proportional rates.
Pro tip , its violent crime .

 

[boramk]

Hey, if people want to bend then bend...plead...grovel away. I'd never demand anyone NOT do it. Do what you want. Freedom of choice and all that.

This next point doesn't pertain to you necessarily, Boramk, but I can't help but wonder how many of the benders would have the same mindset if the movement was WLM. My guess is a fat, round, ZERO.

So this is what I mean by ignorance, and when I say ignorance, just the textbook definition of the word, not using it as an insult by any means - want to clarify that.

White lives matter, as does Asian lives, Hispanic lives etc. BLM isn't saying BL>WL or BL>AL, or that any other lives matter less. It's pointing out to the issue at hand, that right now, black lives don't seem to matter as much. Because it's factual black people are killed far more than any other race in the US- I know a lot of people here wh oare anti-BLM will bring up that white people are actually killed more in total numbers, but this mathematically ignores that there are 5-6x more white people than black. When adjusted for proportion, you are more than twice as likely to be killed if you are black.

And take it from someone who was also skeptical of the movement earlier on - I truly felt the movement was alienating people by saying only black lives matter, when this wasn't the case at all after someone explained this to me and I read more about it.

Again, empathy helps you gain these perspectives; we truly are lucky in that we don't have to think about these things. It was eye opening to me to hear my black friends tell me that they get pulled over often, that they get nervous around cops (like why would I ever be nervous around cops?), that their parents had to teach them how to deal with cops as children, that they have to think about what they wear at night (I had a friend tell me he specifically avoids wearing hoodies because the general populace sees a hoody'd black man as dangerous).

 

[Lucas Buck]

I'm on the left myself but taking action against the players would be counter-productive. It would be better to enter into dialogue with them to find out why they feel the way they do.

I don't think that they need to justify why they're not kneeling. One can be against racism without feeling the need to justify that stance by participating in the latest flavour of the month action.
An example could be that someone is pro what the blm slogan represents, but be against other aspects of what blm as movement and political entity represents.
When the sportsman kneels is he in support of anti-racism or does kneeling lend support to all aspects of the blm organisations ideology?
The climate is so, that whatever action the sportsmen take they'd be judged. So to avoid any hassles some will kneel regardless of their views.

 

[boramk]

Actually they are not killed disproportionately. But if you actually did any research on death by cop you would know that. About 90% of black people killed by a cop is by a black cop.

That's actually not true. Maybe unbias your news sources or don't make things up?
Black people are killed by black cops a lot yes, and the exact figure is actually about the same rate as white cops. That's not great either, but a black city or neighborhood also creates black cops so it makes sense. Regardless, this isn't about the ethnicity of the cops for me.

They also commit a disproportionate amount of crime in the USA , this is why they are interacting with cops at proportional rates.
Pro tip , its violent crime .

This is honestly a can of worms and I can go into a lot more detail if you'd like about why this is the case. That said black people, even if they are criminals, shouldn't be killed.

There were riots in Chicago last weekend because cops shot a black man, who shot at them first. That guy has no sympathy from me and any BLM protests around that would be incredibly stupid. This is more for people who were unarmed and killed, be it George Floyd, Trayvon Martin, Eric Garner etc.