Provide the list of this so called extremist clerics, pretty please. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslim clerics in the world today, and I am not sure what percentage it is that you refer to as "loads". Please make sure the list you post are actually CLERICS, and not self-styled, loud-mouthed non-cleric lunatics with no scholastic background and no common sence. I caution against merely googling for this list wihtout checking it out before posting.The few may well condemn the terrorist activities but that is no indication that there isn't a problem with the fundamentals of the institution, particularly when there's loads of clerics preaching hatred and death to all infidels (I can provide a list of such clerics if you like, but I'm damn sure you are aware of this).
The institution/religion of Islam does indeed have the problem you mention above, for even if there is a single individual who deliberately miscontrues the message of Islam to his/her own end, then there is one too many. But there is not only one, there are quite a few of them globally. The extremist Salafi inflection make up about 1% of the world's Muslims, and the Alqaeda type terrorists only make up a tiny group that derive from the Salafis (and these Salafis, despite being puritanical and extreme, are strongly opposed to this type of violence and terrorism). But even this tiny fraction is too much, and they have caused much harm to others around the world, as well as to Muslims.Do you accept that the institution has a problem, in that there's far to many of the followers that make themselves guilty of terrorism justifying this by the fact that their actions are inline with fundamental teachings of the institute (or what you may call a religion).
I don't know what percentage of the worlds population are christian vs muslim, but without a doubt there's far more terrorist activities committed in the name of islam compared to christianity...
You can only say this if you know nothing about geopolitical activities which include widescale third world oppression and rape, adventures of conquering and exploitation (past and present), and Western support for ruthless dictatorships (i.e. when advantageous to the West; dictator Saddam Hussein found this out the hard way).... and that alone confirms that there is something wrong with the fundamental teachings of islam.
Well by the question I understood it to mean what religion officially by means of its scripture or published articles of faith or whatever you want to call it, require their followers to tax, kill or enslave people as a norm then yes I cant think of one, I don't know of any such. And just because some might shout their mouths off about such they are typically doing a Malema and I lend them as much weight a I do him. And I think Wayfarer has ably pointed out that your implication that Islam requires such is misguided or disingenuous.You're kidding right, or trying to pull a fast one - not going to work here !
If you're really that uninformed, take a look at my sig for a clue.
A Fugitive Cleric Again Emerges as Terror Link - cleric Anwar al-AwlakiProvide the list of this so called extremist clerics, pretty please.
Yes, this is pretty much the list of "suspected terrorist suporting clerics" who preach "hatred and death" that a cursory google would produce. You may have missed about 3 well-known names. If you like, I could post a small fraction of the list of very openly anti-terrorist clerics, but not all of those viewing this thread have uncapped bandwidth...A Fugitive Cleric Again Emerges as Terror Link - cleric Anwar al-Awlaki
Kenya 'deports Muslim hate cleric Abdullah al-Faisal'
Radical Muslim cleric Abu Qatada faces terror charge deportation
Abu Hamza jailed for seven years for inciting murder
The Suicide Factory: Abu Hamza and the Finsbury Park Mosque
Cleric jailed for Bali bombs walks free
Abu Qatada: Islamic cleric is released from jail
Outrage as Muslim cleric likens women to 'uncovered meat'
Abu Izzadeen, the radical Muslim cleric - Muslim cleric 'devoid of remorse' gets 4½ years for terrorism offences
Omar Bakri Mohammad -- "Bombers' Pal"
Respectfully, I have disagree with you on this one. Criminal "Muslims" have been dreadfully guilty of the above, but to say that Islam is synonymous with it is a very long shot - too long.No amount of spin will detract from the fact that islam is synonymous with jihad, be-headings, suicide bombing, and terrorism in general.
I like this wayfare guy, finally a religious person who can debate properly
Hope you will stay and offer you Muslim perspective on some threads?
...and I know i'll make some mistakes along the way, and you guys will faithfully be there to tear me to piecesI agree, and take my hat off to him.
A pleasant change to the usual responses such as can be seen in my sig.
He may not have the qualifications you seek, but he is most certainly a muslim cleric, and it's this type of thing on which the world bases their opinions of islam, and rightfully so.Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation's most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html#ixzz0nSFxdd00
It happened in the past so it's not valid in this discussion - how doff is that?Frankie still spamming the same old material, this gig of yours is getting stale.
Repeatedly PWND !Now I remembered why I don't post here anymore.
Lots of loaded terms there Frankie, but I agree with the just of what you are saying regarding the actions of this individual. He was never Australia's head cleric, there exists no such person. There are many Muslim organisations in Australia. He was merely the honorary head of one of these organisations. Islam is strongly opposed to immodest dress by men and women, but in this instance, he certainly went too far with this metaphor.Wayfarer, you're claiming that they aren't clerics based on qualifications, regardless of the fact that they preached from long established mosques and enjoyed large numbers of muslim followers.
Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, is the despicable ahole cleric that claims western women invite rape by their dress code, when defending the actions of a gang of muslim men that raped a girl in Aus, he referred to women that don't cover themselves to "meat left out for the cat" - he remained the head cleric in Aus, and possibly still holds that position.
You do not base your opinion on anything by a citing deviations by a hand-full of extreme individuals. Most non-Muslims have met and come to know about Islam through personal interaction with actual Muslims, and I think this is how most of the world bases its opinions of Islam - not by these freak incidences.He may not have the qualifications you seek, but he is most certainly a muslim cleric, and it's this type of thing on which the world bases their opinions of islam, and rightfully so.
Islam does not have this concept of "elders" as with Church elders in Christianity. Anyway, Muslim opposition to these statements by him was vocal. In fact, the first two groups in Australia to condemn his statements were the Arab Muslim community and the Turkish Muslim community, even before women's rights groups and other groups.The muslim elders did not dismiss him after his disgusting behavior, he was kept on for some time, until he resigned.
If you are looking for mainstream Muslims, you would do better looking at Sunnis (making up over 80% of the world's Muslims). Iranians are Shia and not Sunni, so definately not. But even mainstream Sunni Muslims have amongst them criminals who have either supported or committed excesses in the name of Islam, but they are few and far between.The Islamic Republic of Iran - can we accept that they are muslims and their actions are what we can use to base our opinions of islam ?
Well, they are suspected as having links to congregants at a certain Mosque, and these particular adherents follow ideologies not very different from the Taliban in neighbouring Afghanistan, or even Al-Qaeda.The terrorists involved in the Mumbai massacre were linked to a mosque in Pakistan !
What contributions that were not done, to show how wonderful Islam is, or where done because of duty. Why are there those plates of coins in Muslim shops, because the owners care for the poor, or because they are commanded to give alms (who can live on alms these days) to the poor. (but of course the poor can go from shop to shop, collecting these small coins until at the end of the day, they have enough pay for a meal.Muslims have made considerable positive contributions to humanity, and this is not denied by even the most hard-hearted of Islam-haters. Many judge Islam by this, but Islam is best judged by the doctrine it professes, and not by the gross excesses committed by some who deviate from its core.
You possibly have a point somewhere in there, but I'm really struggling to find it. Could you perhaps try to rephrase that into coherent English? Thanks.What contributions that were not done, to show how wonderful Islam is, or where done because of duty. Why are there those plates of coins in Muslim shops, because the owners care for the poor, or because they are commanded to give alms (who can live on alms these days) to the poor. (but of course the poor can go from shop to shop, collecting these small coins until at the end of the day, they have enough pay for a meal.
I don't mind you calling yourself a mental idiot, but you have no right to speak for the rest of us.If Islam was so wonderful then the rest of the non muslim world, must be mental idiots for not embracing this world of Islam?
Why don't you respectfully provide a list of 3 to 5 things "of a personal restrictive nature" that bothers you about islam, and I'm sure wayfarer will be happy to address them. That's usually how cordial interaction works (specifically when it's in a debating sub-forum).Next time, you have some free time, have a count of the number of things that the Muslim holy books restrict and prohibit. I could not be bothered to do it properly, but I would guess at least half of the commands are of a personal restrictive nature.
Apparently not.Bugger this, the muslim will disagree with me, and the non muslim know what I am getting at.