Muslim Call to Christians

Frankie

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I cant think of any. But whats the point of the question?
You're kidding right, or trying to pull a fast one - not going to work here !

If you're really that uninformed, take a look at my sig for a clue.
 

wayfarer

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The few may well condemn the terrorist activities but that is no indication that there isn't a problem with the fundamentals of the institution, particularly when there's loads of clerics preaching hatred and death to all infidels (I can provide a list of such clerics if you like, but I'm damn sure you are aware of this).
Provide the list of this so called extremist clerics, pretty please. There are hundreds of thousands of Muslim clerics in the world today, and I am not sure what percentage it is that you refer to as "loads". Please make sure the list you post are actually CLERICS, and not self-styled, loud-mouthed non-cleric lunatics with no scholastic background and no common sence. I caution against merely googling for this list wihtout checking it out before posting.

Do you accept that the institution has a problem, in that there's far to many of the followers that make themselves guilty of terrorism justifying this by the fact that their actions are inline with fundamental teachings of the institute (or what you may call a religion).
The institution/religion of Islam does indeed have the problem you mention above, for even if there is a single individual who deliberately miscontrues the message of Islam to his/her own end, then there is one too many. But there is not only one, there are quite a few of them globally. The extremist Salafi inflection make up about 1% of the world's Muslims, and the Alqaeda type terrorists only make up a tiny group that derive from the Salafis (and these Salafis, despite being puritanical and extreme, are strongly opposed to this type of violence and terrorism). But even this tiny fraction is too much, and they have caused much harm to others around the world, as well as to Muslims.

I don't know what percentage of the worlds population are christian vs muslim, but without a doubt there's far more terrorist activities committed in the name of islam compared to christianity...

And yes, Islam has been seen as a challenge to western hegemony and usurpation, and mad men have used Islam in their desperate terror activities against the West much more than they have used Christianity (seeing that the west is largely Christian, at least in name).

But dear Frankie, this very Christian West have been the perpetrators (in various parts of the world) of a much larger-scale state sponsored terrorism than any of the puny wannabe "Muslim" terrorists. But I am not so stupid and unchivalrous as to stoop to blaming Christianity for excesses committed by these State-criminals. Christianity espouses a beautiful morality, and the world would be a better place if Christians were more Christian.

... and that alone confirms that there is something wrong with the fundamental teachings of islam.
You can only say this if you know nothing about geopolitical activities which include widescale third world oppression and rape, adventures of conquering and exploitation (past and present), and Western support for ruthless dictatorships (i.e. when advantageous to the West; dictator Saddam Hussein found this out the hard way).
 

Tpex

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I like this wayfare guy, finally a religious person who can debate properly :)
Hope you will stay and offer you Muslim perspective on some threads? :)
 

Electromag

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You're kidding right, or trying to pull a fast one - not going to work here !

If you're really that uninformed, take a look at my sig for a clue.
Well by the question I understood it to mean what religion officially by means of its scripture or published articles of faith or whatever you want to call it, require their followers to tax, kill or enslave people as a norm then yes I cant think of one, I don't know of any such. And just because some might shout their mouths off about such they are typically doing a Malema and I lend them as much weight a I do him. And I think Wayfarer has ably pointed out that your implication that Islam requires such is misguided or disingenuous.
 

Frankie

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I like this wayfare guy, finally a religious person who can debate properly :)
Hope you will stay and offer you Muslim perspective on some threads? :)
I agree, and take my hat off to him.
A pleasant change to the usual responses such as can be seen in my sig.
 

undesign

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Pot. Meet. Kettle.


EDIT/ that was meant for JHatman's post about fighting the oppressist muslims to the end - his post was deleted
 
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wayfarer

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Yes, this is pretty much the list of "suspected terrorist suporting clerics" who preach "hatred and death" that a cursory google would produce. You may have missed about 3 well-known names. If you like, I could post a small fraction of the list of very openly anti-terrorist clerics, but not all of those viewing this thread have uncapped bandwidth...

Let's see if these are really death-preaching clerics. While you may not have had the time to do an indepth investigation, you should at least have consulted wikipedia to get a brief overview. You posted a number of links, but number 3 and 7 (from the top) refer to the same non-cleric individual, as do 4 and 5. The article linked at number 8 has nothing to do with with terrorism or death-preaching, but refers to a very sexist comment made by a cleric (that has been condemned by the Australian Muslim Association and other Muslim groups globally).

But let's have a look:

Anwar Al-Awlaki
This non-cleric individual has not been found guilty of any terrorist activity or advocacy whatsover. He is vocal in his condemnation of US foreign policy and this has put him in the limelight, and on the most wanted lists of the FBI and CIA. His links to terrorism are described as "alleged" at best. Is he a supporter of terrorism? I do not know. Is he a cleric? Absolutely not! He is a leader within a minority extreme Salafi group (followed by like-minded people), but he is by no means a cleric.

Wikpedia has this to say: "Puzzled Muslim scholars say they do not understand his popularity, because while he speaks English and can therefore reach a large non-Arabic-speaking audience, al‑Awlaki lacks formal Islamic training or study. Douglas Murray, executive director of the Centre for Social Cohesion, a think tank that studies British radicalization, says: 'they will routinely describe Awlaki as a vital and highly respected scholar, [while he] is actually an al-Qaida-affiliate nut case.'"

Abdullah al-Faisal
This troubled individual has been condemned from within the Muslim community for well over a decade now. In fact, in 1993 he was banned by Brixton Mosque's Salafi administration who objected to his radical preaching (note: even the extremist Salafis banned him). While claiming to be Muslim, he does not follow any of the known schools of thought within Islam, and he condemns even the most extreme inflections as being too soft. While he did spend a considerable amount of time studying Salafism at a university in Saudi Arabia (extremist Salafi head-quarters), he definately is not a cleric of Islam.

Abu Qatada
And this "cleric" studied where? Nevertheless, another passionate Salafi derivative. The Salafis make up 1%, and by some estimates, less than 1% of Muslims. While the Salafi clerics are extreme and not mainstream Muslims, they do not advocate violence or terrorism, as do these looney "Soldiers of Allah".

Abu Hamza al-Masri
*sigh*. This civil engineering drop-out, ex-nightclub-bouncer is no cleric of Islam, dear Frankie. I beg of you, just do the briefest of investigations before posting.

Abu Izzadeen
This electrician has learned the Arabic language, but has no scholarly credentials and is not even close to being a cleric.


Ok. So these do not qualify as cleric death-preachers. So what now? Well, Frankie, even though you have not been able to produce a REAL substantive list, to be honest, there ARE a number of actual terror-supporting Muslim clerics out there. And the truth is that these make up a truly tiny infinitesimal fraction when compared to mainstream clerics. But because of their advocacy of violence and terrorism, the impact they make is wholly disproportionate.

No amount of spin will detract from the fact that islam is synonymous with jihad, be-headings, suicide bombing, and terrorism in general.
Respectfully, I have disagree with you on this one. Criminal "Muslims" have been dreadfully guilty of the above, but to say that Islam is synonymous with it is a very long shot - too long.

The challenge facing the Muslim world is to fully realise the harm that these groups cause to innocents across the world, including innocents from within Islam. A lot is being done to combat this deviance, especially in the last decade, but still more needs to be done.

For Muslim scholarly treatises on terrorism and Islam, as well as the role of the West, see:

Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists

America as a Jihad State

Making the World Safe for Terrorism

Cheers.
 
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wayfarer

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I like this wayfare guy, finally a religious person who can debate properly :)
Hope you will stay and offer you Muslim perspective on some threads? :)
I agree, and take my hat off to him.
A pleasant change to the usual responses such as can be seen in my sig.
...and I know i'll make some mistakes along the way, and you guys will faithfully be there to tear me to pieces :p

I look forward to amicable discussion and debate :)

I have already offered the Muslim perspective on a variety of issues on quite a few threads in PD. Perhaps you would be interested in checking them out...
 

Frankie

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Wayfarer, you're claiming that they aren't clerics based on qualifications, regardless of the fact that they preached from long established mosques and enjoyed large numbers of muslim followers.

Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, is the despicable ahole cleric that claims western women invite rape by their dress code, when defending the actions of a gang of muslim men that raped a girl in Aus, he referred to women that don't cover themselves to "meat left out for the cat" - he remained the head cleric in Aus, and possibly still holds that position.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html

Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, the nation's most senior Muslim cleric, compared immodestly-dressed women who do not wear the Islamic headdress with meat that is left uncovered in the street and is then eaten by cats.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-412697/Outrage-Muslim-cleric-likens-women-uncovered-meat.html#ixzz0nSFxdd00
He may not have the qualifications you seek, but he is most certainly a muslim cleric, and it's this type of thing on which the world bases their opinions of islam, and rightfully so.
The muslim elders did not dismiss him after his disgusting behavior, he was kept on for some time, until he resigned.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taj_El-Din_Hilaly

A few startling facts about the mosque that he lead - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preston_Mosque


The Islamic Republic of Iran - can we accept that they are muslims and their actions are what we can use to base our opinions of islam ?




The terrorists involved in the Mumbai massacre were linked to a mosque in Pakistan !
 
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Frankie

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Frankie still spamming the same old material, this gig of yours is getting stale.
It happened in the past so it's not valid in this discussion - how doff is that?

It happened then and still happens now - sounds like you don't have anything intelligent to say, so resort to straw-man tactics.

Now I remembered why I don't post here anymore.
Repeatedly PWND !
 

wayfarer

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Wayfarer, you're claiming that they aren't clerics based on qualifications, regardless of the fact that they preached from long established mosques and enjoyed large numbers of muslim followers.

Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali, is the despicable ahole cleric that claims western women invite rape by their dress code, when defending the actions of a gang of muslim men that raped a girl in Aus, he referred to women that don't cover themselves to "meat left out for the cat" - he remained the head cleric in Aus, and possibly still holds that position.
Lots of loaded terms there Frankie, but I agree with the just of what you are saying regarding the actions of this individual. He was never Australia's head cleric, there exists no such person. There are many Muslim organisations in Australia. He was merely the honorary head of one of these organisations. Islam is strongly opposed to immodest dress by men and women, but in this instance, he certainly went too far with this metaphor.

But the truth is that his comments, while at first glance seem to absolve men of responsibility when it comes sexually oriented assault on females, were actually derogatory towards males too, as he seemed to be portraying men as mindless sex centric perverts by implying that it is automatic or natural for men to swoop on females who expose their flesh. This is utter nonsense. Internal politics resulted in him holding this honorary title longer than he should have. But he is now no longer known as the head of anything.

He may not have the qualifications you seek, but he is most certainly a muslim cleric, and it's this type of thing on which the world bases their opinions of islam, and rightfully so.
You do not base your opinion on anything by a citing deviations by a hand-full of extreme individuals. Most non-Muslims have met and come to know about Islam through personal interaction with actual Muslims, and I think this is how most of the world bases its opinions of Islam - not by these freak incidences.

The muslim elders did not dismiss him after his disgusting behavior, he was kept on for some time, until he resigned.
Islam does not have this concept of "elders" as with Church elders in Christianity. Anyway, Muslim opposition to these statements by him was vocal. In fact, the first two groups in Australia to condemn his statements were the Arab Muslim community and the Turkish Muslim community, even before women's rights groups and other groups.

Despite this terrible faux pas, you may find it interesting to know that this individual was and is a fierce opponent of terrorism and death-preaching.

The Islamic Republic of Iran - can we accept that they are muslims and their actions are what we can use to base our opinions of islam ?
If you are looking for mainstream Muslims, you would do better looking at Sunnis (making up over 80% of the world's Muslims). Iranians are Shia and not Sunni, so definately not. But even mainstream Sunni Muslims have amongst them criminals who have either supported or committed excesses in the name of Islam, but they are few and far between.

The terrorists involved in the Mumbai massacre were linked to a mosque in Pakistan !
Well, they are suspected as having links to congregants at a certain Mosque, and these particular adherents follow ideologies not very different from the Taliban in neighbouring Afghanistan, or even Al-Qaeda.

Muslims have made considerable positive contributions to humanity, and this is not denied by even the most hard-hearted of Islam-haters. Many judge Islam by this, but Islam is best judged by the doctrine it professes, and not by the gross excesses committed by some who deviate from its core. If you're looking for the source of suffering and malaise facing the global human population, or the threat to peaceful human existence, you are barking up the wrong tree.
 
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Frankie

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So, now all the muslim clerics spreading hatred and death to all infidels shouldn't reflect on islam, because they lack formal qualifications, and now we shouldn't judge islam by what they do in the islamic republic of iran, because they aren't the savoury type of muslim - the crux of the matter is, we will judge them by their actions, and these actions are abuse of women rights, abuse of children's rights, abuse of human rights, marital rape (afghan), suicide bombing, beheadings, terrorist activity, ...........

The underpants chrismas day wannabe plane bomber claims to be a muslim - is he a muslim?
 

Balstrome

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Muslims have made considerable positive contributions to humanity, and this is not denied by even the most hard-hearted of Islam-haters. Many judge Islam by this, but Islam is best judged by the doctrine it professes, and not by the gross excesses committed by some who deviate from its core.
What contributions that were not done, to show how wonderful Islam is, or where done because of duty. Why are there those plates of coins in Muslim shops, because the owners care for the poor, or because they are commanded to give alms (who can live on alms these days) to the poor. (but of course the poor can go from shop to shop, collecting these small coins until at the end of the day, they have enough pay for a meal.

If Islam was so wonderful then the rest of the non muslim world, must be mental idiots for not embracing this world of Islam? Next time, you have some free time, have a count of the number of things that the Muslim holy books restrict and prohibit. I could not be bothered to do it properly, but I would guess at least half of the commands are of a personal restrictive nature.

Bugger this, the muslim will disagree with me, and the non muslim know what I am getting at.
 

Na-iem

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What contributions that were not done, to show how wonderful Islam is, or where done because of duty. Why are there those plates of coins in Muslim shops, because the owners care for the poor, or because they are commanded to give alms (who can live on alms these days) to the poor. (but of course the poor can go from shop to shop, collecting these small coins until at the end of the day, they have enough pay for a meal.
You possibly have a point somewhere in there, but I'm really struggling to find it. Could you perhaps try to rephrase that into coherent English? Thanks.

If Islam was so wonderful then the rest of the non muslim world, must be mental idiots for not embracing this world of Islam?
I don't mind you calling yourself a mental idiot, but you have no right to speak for the rest of us.

Next time, you have some free time, have a count of the number of things that the Muslim holy books restrict and prohibit. I could not be bothered to do it properly, but I would guess at least half of the commands are of a personal restrictive nature.
Why don't you respectfully provide a list of 3 to 5 things "of a personal restrictive nature" that bothers you about islam, and I'm sure wayfarer will be happy to address them. That's usually how cordial interaction works (specifically when it's in a debating sub-forum).

Bugger this, the muslim will disagree with me, and the non muslim know what I am getting at.
Apparently not.
 
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