My thought for the day

Nick333

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This has been a good thread so far and I think it will remain that way if we steer clear of allowing our ideas to become dogmatic. Its all very well to speculate about the possibilities, but to talk about incarnating and choice is pointless because I seriously doubt anyone we know, knows the truth of it. Best to work with what we do know.

Before we can help others in any lasting way we need to help ourselves first. I don't mean pursue wealth so that we can send a few million to Somalia, you're bound to stray from your course on that path.

The root of all the man made woes in the world is selfishness. Selfishness is the result of the desire to fulfill artificial needs. Needs that by their very nature are insatiable. Selfishness can only be addressed by an individual on an individual level i.e. you can only fix yourself.

As relatively powerless individuals we can only affect small change, in ourselves and by helping others to the best of our abilities.
Those of us with true power attained power through selfish desire for power and can never really change the world because, as well as intentioned as they may think themselves to be, their actions will always be guided by their desire to acquire or retain power.

So how do we help the world? We start by fixing ourselves. As we become better people we become better able to help others.

It will take a very long time to create a world without selfishness. Possibly it will never happen. All we can try and do is improve ourselves (not just our circumstances) and do some lasting good in our immediate reality.

Just my 1 1/2 cents worth.
 

Debbie

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You see, that is the classic response. 'They' 'chose' to reincarnate as starving dogs. I think not.
People are responsible for their own upliftment. To reject this on ANY level is to reject the entire idea of personal responsibility. You can't say that one group of people must accept personal responsibility for themselves and their future but another group doesn't have to. Everyone is equally responsible for improving their own lives. That's not to say that we all start from a position of equality and equal opportunity- because very clearly we don't.

The intellectual exercises lead to a conclusion of personal responsibility....personal responsibility not only for our own lives, but also for the effects that our choices have on others. To me this doesn't mean we have to run out and 'save' people, but it does mean becoming aware of how we contribute to creating an unjust situation, and taking responsibility for this (ie living our lives in such a way that we minimise or don't consciously create externalities and then leave others to deal with the externalities). Easier said than done given the capitalist system... My point that we are all responsible for our own lives, regardless of the situation we start from, remains.
 

kilo39

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People are responsible for their own upliftment. To reject this on ANY level is to reject the entire idea of personal responsibility. You can't say that one group of people must accept personal responsibility for themselves and their future but another group doesn't have to. Everyone is equally responsible for improving their own lives. That's not to say that we all start from a position of equality and equal opportunity- because very clearly we don't.
Upliftment? What be that? Is upliftment more toys? Is upliftment being able to eat every night? Is upliftment education? No it is some of these things but not all of them and certainly not "people are responsible for the own upliftment." IOW nobody chooses to be a dog, to be starving. They (the decisions) are incumbent on other peoples decisions. These people may be the most uplifted in the world (say spiritually) but they are still dependent on the "good or evil deeds of others."

IOW their upliftment is our responsibility not theirs. Everyone chooses a better life, it is part of the human condition. Whether you arrive at that goal is dependent on the human condition, note not solely yours but the greater world around yours. Yours only contribute to the greater good (or greater evil.)
 

Xarog

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@ Debbie and Kilo...

I think you're both right and wrong, and at the same time.

I am responsible for my own enlightenment and upliftment. Education, food, these are my own responsilities. I cannot simply lie around doing nothing and expect to get fed. I cannot expect you to teach me if I do not want to learn.

But then you(plural) also have a responsibility when it comes to my upliftment - it's your responsibility not to deny me the opportunity to enlighten myself. Infact I would go as far as to say that you should do what you can to provide me the opportunity to uplift myself - and vice versa.
 

GamerGirl

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nope, i've heard of it, but i've never actually watched it. its on my to do list.

i've watched a few video's by bruce lipton, biology of belief and a fractal universe, apparently he has plenty more. i highly recommend his work. my companies firewall blocks access to www.brucelipton.com which is where you can find stuff that makes you think.

i recommend some of greg braden's work also.
First off brilliant post... very very good

also if anyone wants copies of What the bleep or The Secret, Pm me, I can send copies of both. Mind-blowing thinking in both dvd's :D
 

Debbie

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Upliftment? What be that? Is upliftment more toys? Is upliftment being able to eat every night? Is upliftment education? No it is some of these things but not all of them and certainly not "people are responsible for the own upliftment." IOW nobody chooses to be a dog, to be starving. They (the decisions) are incumbent on other peoples decisions. These people may be the most uplifted in the world (say spiritually) but they are still dependent on the "good or evil deeds of others."

IOW their upliftment is our responsibility not theirs. Everyone chooses a better life, it is part of the human condition. Whether you arrive at that goal is dependent on the human condition, note not solely yours but the greater world around yours. Yours only contribute to the greater good (or greater evil.)
'Upliftment' in the sense I have used it = getting people to a place where they have a semi-decent quality of life (ie basic things like water, food, proper housing, sanitation, education).

I don't care how bad your life is or what happened to you when and where or what kind of situation you were born into. That does not excuse one for taking responsibility for one's own future. Don't misinterpret me- I do not suggest that people live in poverty/bad situation because it is their creation/fault. That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that, regardless of the past and regardless of whoever or whatever is responsible for the bad situation you find yourself in, one is still responsible for one's own future. To not accept responsibility for this is to play the victim and to accept victimhood. To accept victimhood is to choose victimhood. And anyone who chooses victimhood will always be a victim, always.
 

Debbie

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@ Debbie and Kilo...

I think you're both right and wrong, and at the same time.

I am responsible for my own enlightenment and upliftment. Education, food, these are my own responsilities. I cannot simply lie around doing nothing and expect to get fed. I cannot expect you to teach me if I do not want to learn.

But then you(plural) also have a responsibility when it comes to my upliftment - it's your responsibility not to deny me the opportunity to enlighten myself. Infact I would go as far as to say that you should do what you can to provide me the opportunity to uplift myself - and vice versa.
Xarog, this has been my exact point all along... what is it that I have said that you disagree with?
 

Xarog

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Sorry, I missed one of your posts. I see that you were saying the same things I said. :)
 

simple_simon

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i think i agree with nick333 not to get off topic of the thread.

my thought is around the concept that we all are creator gods, we are responsible for everything that happens to us.

how can i as a god do anything to you as a god? the only way i can is with your permission, as we have equal power.

this will bring this further concept of group consciousness....us group of gods on earth as humanity. do we have a plan, that is in our subconscious while encarnate on earth? what if a plan is to create a situation on earth where there is no frequency of poverty. in order to have no frequancy of poverty, we have to know that we don't want it, hence we have to know what it is.

in steps a groups of gods who say "hey, i'll do it".

thats power.
 

simple_simon

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my next challenge is to figure out exactly how to create the frequencies i want in my life. to have them manifest as my reality.

no more bs, i want to figure out a way that works for me. to walk my talk so to speak. my way, may be different to your way.

as soon as i have a bit more time today, i'm going to follow the steps i did when i came up with this thought, i need more answers that i understand.

its great if other people understand also.

comes back to nick333's statement, in order to "help" others you must help yourself first
 

simple_simon

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holy cr@p balls, i watched "the secret" last night, i rate they're plagerising my thought for the day ;)

so the saying when the student is ready the teacher will appear....is quite correct.

i recommend that you watch "the secret" its awesome and its got its theory on how to tune into the "radio station" you want.

its brilliant....i plan on watching it numerous times until i feel i have suffiecently unprograamed my self and added the program i choose.
 

Debbie

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holy cr@p balls, i watched "the secret" last night, i rate they're plagerising my thought for the day ;)

so the saying when the student is ready the teacher will appear....is quite correct.

i recommend that you watch "the secret" its awesome and its got its theory on how to tune into the "radio station" you want.

its brilliant....i plan on watching it numerous times until i feel i have suffiecently unprograamed my self and added the program i choose.
Hey S_S, where did you see it and how would one get hold of this?
 

kilo39

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@ Debbie: see post #26

(and I shall apply my immense mind to this problem :D and see what comes out!) And no I still don't agree with this upliftment thing, maybe later. :)
 

DragonLogos

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All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident - Arthur Schopenhauer



Reminds me of an article back in the Mid 70s called ' The Music of Life '

Perhaps Together we are god would be a better choice of words, might stop some ppl taking offence were none was intended

An interesting person in this regard to google is David Bohm

" When Bohm encountered such obstacles, he responded in a way that is unusual for scientists, and especially rare among physicists: Bohm carried his quest beyond not only physics but beyond the bounds of science altogether.
Bohm's greatness is due in significant measure to his frequent habit of carrying his burning questions well beyond science and deep into other epistemological realms, leaving behind everything he knew in the search for new clues and insights. In so doing, Bohm exemplified his commitment to wholeness, not in his theories, but in his epistemology.

The most significant example of this process was Bohm's extensive dialogues with the Indian spiritual master and mystic, J. Krishnamurti. Bohm was first exposed to Krishnamurti's teaching when his wife, Saral, brought home to him one of Krishnamurti's books from the library because she noticed that it centred on the observer/observed relationship, which is so crucial in quantum theory. Bohm and Krishnamurti eventually developed a close friendship, and they carried on an intensive dialogue over several years that entailed deep explorations of the ultimate meaning and nature of thought, insight, existence, death, truth, reality, intelligence, and so on "

" There is a gulf between truth and reality; they are not the same thing. Illusion and falsehood are certainly part of reality, but they are not part of truth. Truth includes all that is; it is one. Reality is conditioned and multiple. Truth is beyond reality; it comprehends reality, but not vice versa. Reality is everything; truth is no-thingness. We need truth, but our minds are occupied with reality. We seek security in reality, but authentic security comes only in complete nothingness, that is, only in truth. The seed of truth is a mystery that thought cannot encompass; it is beyond reality "

" The Tibetan Master Sogyal Rinpoche (1992) has noted striking parallels between Bohm's model and the three kayas in Buddhist ontology. "



There is a fine art to making things simple, the three minute song, the 30 second advert. I remember many years ago when I was looking into muliverse and dimensions, that there was a book, an entire book, on the maths of the fourth dimension!!!
 

GamerGirl

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holy cr@p balls, i watched "the secret" last night, i rate they're plagerising my thought for the day ;)

so the saying when the student is ready the teacher will appear....is quite correct.

i recommend that you watch "the secret" its awesome and its got its theory on how to tune into the "radio station" you want.

its brilliant....i plan on watching it numerous times until i feel i have suffiecently unprograamed my self and added the program i choose.
'tis good huh!
Im glad you enjoyed it!!
 

kilo39

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The most significant example of this process was Bohm's extensive dialogues with the Indian spiritual master and mystic, J. Krishnamurti. Bohm was first exposed to Krishnamurti's teaching when his wife, Saral, brought home to him one of Krishnamurti's books from the library because she noticed that it centred on the observer/observed relationship, which is so crucial in quantum theory. Bohm and Krishnamurti eventually developed a close friendship, and they carried on an intensive dialogue over several years that entailed deep explorations of the ultimate meaning and nature of thought, insight, existence, death, truth, reality, intelligence, and so on "
I must say Krishnamurti is one of my pillars and ALL his writing is available on the web.
[link]

All I really wanted to say on this 'upliftment thing' is: we shouldn't be so centered on "people should help themselves." I have been helped many times, that help is a large part of who I am, and for it I am eternally grateful. Without the gifts given us we would not be the people we are: we should remember this when telling others 'to help themselves.'
 

Debbie

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All I really wanted to say on this 'upliftment thing' is: we shouldn't be so centered on "people should help themselves." I have been helped many times, that help is a large part of who I am, and for it I am eternally grateful. Without the gifts given us we would not be the people we are: we should remember this when telling others 'to help themselves.'
I wouldn't deny this kilo39. I'm just saying that when helping others it is just as important that people choose to help themselves. You ultimately cannot help someone who is not willing to step up and play their role in helping themselves. At minimum there has to be the psychological acceptance of personal responsibility for one's future.

There is a supplementary part to this thought process in my head- you get people who choose to do good but they do so reluctantly or begrudgingly, or with the motivation of wanting to find favour with God or the afterlife or whatever (all are of questionable base morality); and then you get people who just do good not for any reason, but as an effect of who they are. They are good so they do good, as opposed to doing good in order to be 'good'. (I wouldn't make these black and white categories- ie I wouldn't say that most people are either/or, I think most people are a mixture depending on what exactly the task or general issue at hand is.)

kilo39 said:
I must say Krishnamurti is one of my pillars and ALL his writing is available on the web.
[link]
*Bookmarked* tx.
 
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