National Assembly Makes History As It Adopts Land Report

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
11,899
You dont understand how constitutional changes work right ? If it is passed and written into the constitution before elections it does not matter who wins the elections. People will be grabbing land and to try reform the constitution again will take much longer than 10months not to mention the retarded 201 to 91 outcome in votes.
They will not be able to change the constitution before the elections, hell they do not even know how they want to change it.
 

Fulcrum29

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
29,060
They will not be able to change the constitution before the elections, hell they do not even know how they want to change it.
The Bill is introduced on Thursday, they know how they want to change it.

According to Steenhuisen parliament will only 'grapple' the Bill on the sixth parliament.
 

Lew Skannen

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2012
Messages
2,903
Great! No just to change the constitution! Almost there....

If the property market and banks though the conditions were difficult before, just keep an eye out on the next few months.
 

John Tempus

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2017
Messages
2,361
201:91

The opposition parties, who opposed this, also had members supporting the constitutional amendment. The many want this, who am I to disagree and to continue to disagree?

STILL, not a single item is mentioned to be 'amended'? No template, nothing. See, this isn't land expropriation, it is property expropriation.

Social democracy at work here which greatly leans to socialism and populism... I wouldn't be surprised to see the Zulus have their nationalism :whistling:
Idiots from all parties voted for this in order to get
They will not be able to change the constitution before the elections, hell they do not even know how they want to change it.
They wont have to. Do you think an opposition party will get 70% majority vote to unseat the ANC and roll back this whole constitutional change ?

Not going to happen, to get 201 votes clearly the DA and other parties also ended up voting for this so right now there is just a bunch of enemies sucking up for votes it seems.
 

BBSA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
11,899
Idiots from all parties voted for this in order to get


They wont have to. Do you think an opposition party will get 70% majority vote to unseat the ANC and roll back this whole constitutional change ?

Not going to happen, to get 201 votes clearly the DA and other parties also ended up voting for this so right now there is just a bunch of enemies sucking up for votes it seems.
What are you talking about, the constitution has not been changed?
 

ponder

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
76,085
How do you get from "not a single item is mentioned to be 'amended'? No template, nothing" to " it is property expropriation"?
Section 25 of the constitution relates to property, all property and not only land.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapter_Two_of_the_Constitution_of_South_Africa#Property
Section 25 enshrines the right to property, which is a standard international human right. The Section is very detailed, making it unique among human rights instruments. The Section amongst others covers arbitrary deprivation of property and compensation in great detail, which is in the context of the South African post-apartheid era and the Black Economic Empowerment program.

The Section states “No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application, and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property. Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application for a public purpose or in the public interest; and subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court.”

The Section makes detailed provisions on compensation by stating “The amount of the compensation and the time and manner of payment must be just and equitable, reflecting an equitable balance between the public interest and the interests of those affected, having regard to all relevant circumstances.”

The Section sets out the context in which these provisions may be of relevance, in stating “For the purposes of this section the public interest includes the nation's commitment to land reform, and to reforms to bring about equitable access to all South Africa's natural resources; and property is not limited to land. The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to foster conditions which enable citizens to gain access to land on an equitable basis. A person or community whose tenure of land is legally insecure as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices is entitled, to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to tenure which is legally secure or to comparable redress. A person or community dispossessed of property after 19 June 1913 as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices is entitled, to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to restitution of that property or to equitable redress.”
https://www.gov.za/documents/constitution/chapter-2-bill-rights#25

25. Property
1. No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application, and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property.

2. Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application

a. for a public purpose or in the public interest; and

b. subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court.

3. The amount of the compensation and the time and manner of payment must be just and equitable, reflecting an equitable balance between the public interest and the interests of those affected, having regard to all relevant circumstances, including

a. the current use of the property;

b. the history of the acquisition and use of the property;

c. the market value of the property;

d. the extent of direct state investment and subsidy in the acquisition and beneficial capital improvement of the property; and

e. the purpose of the expropriation.

4. For the purposes of this section

a. the public interest includes the nation's commitment to land reform, and to reforms to bring about equitable access to all South Africa's natural resources; and

b. property is not limited to land.

5. The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to foster conditions which enable citizens to gain access to land on an equitable basis.

6. A person or community whose tenure of land is legally insecure as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices is entitled, to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to tenure which is legally secure or to comparable redress.

7. A person or community dispossessed of property after 19 June 1913 as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices is entitled, to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to restitution of that property or to equitable redress.

8. No provision of this section may impede the state from taking legislative and other measures to achieve land, water and related reform, in order to redress the results of past racial discrimination, provided that any departure from the provisions of this section is in accordance with the provisions of section 36(1).

9. Parliament must enact the legislation referred to in subsection (6).
 

Fulcrum29

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
29,060
Idiots from all parties voted for this in order to get


They wont have to. Do you think an opposition party will get 70% majority vote to unseat the ANC and roll back this whole constitutional change ?

Not going to happen, to get 201 votes clearly the DA and other parties also ended up voting for this so right now there is just a bunch of enemies sucking up for votes it seems.
As BBSA said, this is only accepting the report that validates a constitutional amendment. The National Council of Provinces is voting tomorrow on the acceptance of the report, if they accept, which is likely, the bill will be introduced on Thursday. Then the bill will only be argued by the sixth parliament according to the DA's Steenhuisen. The EFF seeks absolute state control over land (property) and that alone will be a volatile debate between the ANC and the EFF, but those without the 'vote' won't have much influence in parliament and will have to pursue through legal means.
 

jambai

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
801
So who is the expert on how this will most likely pan out . Banks being very quiet . I don’t understand that nobody seen a draft amendment yet or where is it ?
 

Fulcrum29

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
29,060
So who is the expert on how this will most likely pan out . Banks being very quiet . I don’t understand that nobody seen a draft amendment yet or where is it ?
If the National Council of Provinces accepts the report tomorrow then the Bill will be introduced on Thursday.

I am dumbstruck because the promotion of expropriation without compensation is extremely vague without context so I don’t even know how public participation has been adequate in the first place, ignoring that the government largely ignored public comment on the matter.

I know that they will target property... for flexibility and illustration of power when the need be.
 

Zoomzoom

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 15, 2014
Messages
4,673
1. Watch house prices tumble as people panic.

2. Watch investment (and jobs) vanish like a bar of chocolate in the hands of a chubby kid on a hot day.

3. Watch as the EFF and BLF are empowered by their 'victory' to further violence.

4. Wait for the realisation that absolutely nothing will change in the lives of the average South African who needs a job, not a piece of useless land they can't do sweet fanny adams with without training, money and support. IF they even get a bit of land!
 

thestaggy

Honorary Master
Joined
May 11, 2011
Messages
14,540
Was always going to happen.

You all have to accept the fact that the ANC and EFF WILL destroy what is left of South Africa.

The genie cannot be put back in the bottle so the idiots that still think their Ramessiah can turn this around once he has delivered the ANC their election win are dreaming. They will have to go through with this or else their bluff will be called and the next election cycle will be even worse as the ANC will have to do or promise something even more radical to get their majority.
 

NarrowBandFtw

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
16,032
their bluff will be called and the next election cycle will be even worse
Worse still: they won't be waiting for another election cycle, the ANC has removed their last two elected presidents after all ...

Tend to agree we're past the point of no return, sadly, only stuff-up being I'm in a good space professionally speaking right now and don't really want to leave that behind ... frog slowly boiling, yet fully aware
 

flippakitten

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2015
Messages
1,250
sigh... the people rejoicing the most are the thieve in parliament that have a new source of looting and corruption to pillage for their own benefit.
 

Fulcrum29

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
29,060
The media has been quiet today... The draft motion was debated this afternoon and there is very little noise. The motion was also adopted, 183:77. The Constitution is to amended by 31 March 2019.
 

ArtyLoop

Executive Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2017
Messages
6,144
The media has been quiet today... The draft motion was debated this afternoon and there is very little noise. The motion was also adopted, 183:77. The Constitution is to amended by 31 March 2019.
Them media bosses probably banging down the doors of the emigration agencies, so neglecting their posts
 

Fulcrum29

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 25, 2010
Messages
29,060
And the bill info?
https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/land-expropriation-ad-hoc-committee-to-be-set-up-to-amend-constitution-20181206

Land expropriation: Ad hoc committee to be set up to amend Constitution
The National Assembly has passed a motion to establish an ad hoc committee that will draft an amendment to section 25 of the Constitution to allow expropriation without compensation.

In a heated debate, ANC chief whip Jackson Mthembu brought the motion to the National Assembly on Thursday after both houses of Parliament on Wednesday adopted the Joint Constitutional Review Committee's report which recommended an amendment.

The motion was adopted with 183 MPs voting yes, 77 voting no and no abstentions.

As expected, the parties that opposed the adoption of the commission's report – the DA, IFP, FF Plus, Cope and ACDP – also opposed the adoption of the motion, pointing to procedural flaws as they did with the report.

The parties that supported the report – ANC, EFF, UDM, NFP, AIC and APC – also supported the motion.

DA chief whip John Steenhuisen said the Constitution requires public participation for it to be amended, but the motion "seeks to bind this House to adopting this bill".

'This is madness'

"What it (the passing of the motion) also says, very clearly, to the people of South Africa is that regardless of their submissions, this bill is a fait accompli (already decided)," Steenhuisen said.

"This is madness. The message it sends to the people of South Africa is 'we don't care what you say'."

Steenhuisen said the decision made a farce of the participatory parliamentary process.

EFF MP Hlengiwe Mkhaliphi said the party knew there would be a "massive fightback" against expropriation without compensation by "beneficiaries of racism".

She referred to the slow pace of land redistribution since 1994.

"At the root of the problem is the constitutional framework."

'Your time is up, white people'

She said the EFF was ready with a proposed amendment, which would read that all land in private hands must be appropriated.

"Your time is up, white people," she said.

IFP MP Mkhuleko Hlengwa said his party objected to the haste with which the ANC tabled the motion and said the motion was flawed because of "procedural irregularities".

"We cannot allow the abuse of parliamentary process," Hlengwa said.

He said section 25 of the Constitution in its current form was broad enough to allow substantial land reform.

"The question we should ask is how to achieve real land reform," he said.

Committee's recommendations 'irrational'

In reference to Mkhaliphi's warning that time was up for white people, he said to the ANC, "when the blood flows, it will be on your hands".

ANC MPs booed him.

Cope MP Deidre Carter said the Joint Constitutional Review Committee's recommendations were "irrational". She criticised the ANC for having not changed expropriation legislation, which dates back to the presidency of Hendrik Verwoerd's successor, BJ Vorster.

APC MP Themba Godi said: "Those who oppose the resolution of the land question are at peace with poverty and suffering."

Mthembu said the draft resolution's only intention was to create a mechanism to take forward the decision the House took on Tuesday.

He said the ad hoc committee would institute the constitutionally obligated public participation process.

"I thank all colleagues who agree with the establishment of the ad hoc committee, because it is the right thing to do," Mthembu said.

March 2019 deadline

The Joint Constitutional Review Committee's report recommended that section 25 of the Constitution be amended "to make explicit that which is implicit in the Constitution with regards to expropriation of land without compensation as a legitimate option for land reform, so as to address the historic wrongs caused by the arbitrary dispossession of land, and in so doing ensure equitable access to land and further empower the majority of South Africans to be productive participants in ownership, food security and agricultural reform programmes".

The report also recommended that the Constitutional Amendment Bill be tabled, processed and passed before the end of the Fifth Parliament, which will rise before next year's election, presumably in March or April.

The ad hoc committee will consist of 11 voting members of the National Assembly, six from the ANC, two from the DA, one from the EFF and two from other parties.

There will also be 14 non-voting members, with two from the ANC, one from the DA, one from the EFF and 10 from other parties.

The motion gives the committee a deadline of March 31, 2019, to complete its work.
We will need to wait, but the DA only has 2 people on the committee... see the racism now bleeding everywhere now that EWC is a thing.
 
Top