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- Thread starter MaD
- Start date
TheRoDent
Cool Ideas Rep
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,218
I honestly think this is the only way we're going to get this backward-assed country lifted out of the fscking dark ages.
Guerilla networking...
<center><h5><font color="red">Oo. MyWireless <s>Hacks</s> Tweaks & Tech Info.oO </font id="red"></h5><h6>Have you checked the fawking FAQ?</h6></center>
Guerilla networking...
<center><h5><font color="red">Oo. MyWireless <s>Hacks</s> Tweaks & Tech Info.oO </font id="red"></h5><h6>Have you checked the fawking FAQ?</h6></center>
lewstherin
Senior Member
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2004
- Messages
- 968
Preach it brother [
]
<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
]<font color="blue">Telkom needs a leash, ICASA needs some guts, and the </font id="blue"><font color="red">SA consumer</font id="red"><font color="blue"> needs to make it happen</font id="blue">
TheRoDent,
Well, if you want to really get into it, get everybody in your neighbourhood to buy one of these new el-cheapo APs from Gigabyte. A16B is the one you're after.
It's short range 11MBps 802.11b networking, but, with a firmware upgrade from their web site, it also supports WDS (repeater) mode.
This way, you can set up a network with very low signal strength that won't attract attention and as an added bonus, everybody can roam around in their houses with their notebooks, no directional antennas needed. [8D]
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
Well, if you want to really get into it, get everybody in your neighbourhood to buy one of these new el-cheapo APs from Gigabyte. A16B is the one you're after.
It's short range 11MBps 802.11b networking, but, with a firmware upgrade from their web site, it also supports WDS (repeater) mode.
This way, you can set up a network with very low signal strength that won't attract attention and as an added bonus, everybody can roam around in their houses with their notebooks, no directional antennas needed. [8D]
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
buckinghamrd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 15
Very basic question - Using your el-cheapo APs from Gigabyte. If I have gateway computer A connected to a AP via a hub in Room 1 and a second AP in repeater mode in Room 2 connected to computer B via a cross over cable. Assuming 2 AP's can comunicate is computer B able to see and use computer A as gateway. In other words computer B doesn't have to use a wireless LAN card but will be using second AP for is connection? Tim
buckinghamrd,
Yes.
What you want to do is set up the APs in WDS mode and also enable 802.1d spanning tree support on their conventional eithernet ports.
What you will get then is ethernet bridged over wireless back to ethernet, as if you had just linked the two systems together with an extremely long cross over cable, or put a hub somewhere in between them.
Once this is working, you can do anything with the computers on either side that you would be able to do if they were on the same ethernet LAN.
If you hook the APs up to switches, you can even bridge between two ethernet LANs.
The really nice thing about WDS repeater mode is that you don't need to run one of your APs in "client AP" mode, which means you can still use both APs to provide coverage for wireless devices in addition to them acting as bridges.
They will also operate as "stand-alone" repeaters, meaning you need not have an ethernet cable plugged into every AP if you just want to use them to improve coverage.
This is what makes them so very nice for "guerilla networking" perposes, get people across your neighbourhood to host them in their houses, and not only can they hook them up to their ethernets to provide access, but they can also create a neighbourhood wireless hotspot sothat everybody with the right encryption key can strole around the neighbourhood with their laptop/PDA and surf away. []
The APs also support IAPP (Inter Access Point Protocol), so any Wi-Fi devices with IAPP support (most have it these days) can roam seamlessly between your APs.
To operate in WDS mode, the APs need not have the same SSID, so you can still give each AP a meaningful SSID to help with signal strength testing, location checking and any general debugging.
Just be sure to get the firmware upgrade from http://www.giga-byte.com/ once you have the APs. The original 1.02 firmware it ships with does not support WDS. To get WDS, first install 1.03 (which fixes a firmware upgrade bug) and then install 1.192.
DO NOT install the 2.00 firmware, GB have very strange version numbering principles, but 2.00 is the beta version of 1.192, so 1.192 is the latest version which isn't an unstable beta firmware.
The APs can be managed with a web interface or SNMPv1. They include an SNMP AP management utility, but I recommend using the web interface instead.
The APs you want are Gigabyte GN-A16B. Rectron sell them wholesale for R450 ex. VAT. You should be able to find it from your local retailer though, but don't pay anything above R650 for it, or you are getting totally ripped.
As a side note, the blue cable included with each AP is a cross-over cable, so you need not purchase them separately. A gray straight CAT5 cable is also included.
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
Yes.
What you want to do is set up the APs in WDS mode and also enable 802.1d spanning tree support on their conventional eithernet ports.
What you will get then is ethernet bridged over wireless back to ethernet, as if you had just linked the two systems together with an extremely long cross over cable, or put a hub somewhere in between them.
Once this is working, you can do anything with the computers on either side that you would be able to do if they were on the same ethernet LAN.
If you hook the APs up to switches, you can even bridge between two ethernet LANs.
The really nice thing about WDS repeater mode is that you don't need to run one of your APs in "client AP" mode, which means you can still use both APs to provide coverage for wireless devices in addition to them acting as bridges.
They will also operate as "stand-alone" repeaters, meaning you need not have an ethernet cable plugged into every AP if you just want to use them to improve coverage.
This is what makes them so very nice for "guerilla networking" perposes, get people across your neighbourhood to host them in their houses, and not only can they hook them up to their ethernets to provide access, but they can also create a neighbourhood wireless hotspot sothat everybody with the right encryption key can strole around the neighbourhood with their laptop/PDA and surf away. [
]The APs also support IAPP (Inter Access Point Protocol), so any Wi-Fi devices with IAPP support (most have it these days) can roam seamlessly between your APs.
To operate in WDS mode, the APs need not have the same SSID, so you can still give each AP a meaningful SSID to help with signal strength testing, location checking and any general debugging.
Just be sure to get the firmware upgrade from http://www.giga-byte.com/ once you have the APs. The original 1.02 firmware it ships with does not support WDS. To get WDS, first install 1.03 (which fixes a firmware upgrade bug) and then install 1.192.
DO NOT install the 2.00 firmware, GB have very strange version numbering principles, but 2.00 is the beta version of 1.192, so 1.192 is the latest version which isn't an unstable beta firmware.
The APs can be managed with a web interface or SNMPv1. They include an SNMP AP management utility, but I recommend using the web interface instead.
The APs you want are Gigabyte GN-A16B. Rectron sell them wholesale for R450 ex. VAT. You should be able to find it from your local retailer though, but don't pay anything above R650 for it, or you are getting totally ripped.
As a side note, the blue cable included with each AP is a cross-over cable, so you need not purchase them separately. A gray straight CAT5 cable is also included.
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
Perdition,
As far as I can tell, there is no limit on this. You will have to bear in mind that it does entail a slight performance hit, supposedly, it breaks the maximum possible throughput down to 5.5MBps, I've never really noticed slowdowns on my network though.
Setting it up should be fairly straight forward. The best way to do it would be to work the same way as 802.1d spanning tree ethernet bridges, but manually.
WDS allows for setting up repeaters to repeat for specific APs only, so, AP 2 can repeat for AP 1 and 3 but AP 1 and 3 only repeat for AP 2. Since AP 2 is repeating for 1 and 3, a frame from an ethernet netework connected to AP 1 can be broadcast, repeated for AP 1 by AP 2, received by AP 3 and bridged back to an ethernet behind AP 3.
Perhaps I should explain in diagram form:
|ETHERNET|
||
| AP 1 |
||
|TO-AP-2|
||
\/
RADIO SIGNAL
/\
||
|TO-AP-1|
||
| AP 2 |
||
|TO-AP-3|
||
\/
RADIO SIGNAL
/\
||
|TO-AP-2|
||
| AP 3 |
||
|ETHERNET|
In other words, AP 2 would receive the radio signal from AP 1 and bridge any frames to its ethernet port (if it is connected to a network), and also retransmit the signal to its coverage footprint.
AP 3 would receive the retransmitted signal and in turn bridge the frames to its ethernet block, and yet again retransmit the frame to its coverage area.
You could keep going ad infinitum with a chain like this, since each AP only has to repeat signals for one or two other APs, which are in turn repeating signals for other APs. In this way, your signal should propagate to every AP and your ethernet frames should propagate to every ethernet network or wireless device connected to each AP.
WDS has built in safeties to prevent feedback loops, so you need not worry that AP 2 will repeat a signal it got from AP 3 which AP 3 just got from AP 2, etc.
Be sure not to set up repeater links between APs if they aren't needed. Each AP should only repeat for other APs that are just on the threshold of its coverage footprint.
Bouncing the signal in this way, you should be able to build a discreet network that can span several kilometers, without needing high gain antennas that attract a lot of attention, or worse, amplifiers, which are totally illegal.
The general coverage footprint you can expect from the A16B is about 300 meters when repeating for other APs, regardless of line of sight, and about 50 - 300 meters when talking to wireless client devices, depending on line of sight and the strength of the device.
So, for a network that can effectively bounce your signals over long distances, with minimal impact on performance, you will want one repeater AP at least every 300 meters.
If you place your repeaters in a straight line, you should be able to get a coverage area in one street of 1 kilometer or more with 4 of these little APs.
If you build in a star topology, you could feasibly create a mesh with limitless coverage around your area. Just make sure to be as economical as you can be in terms of the amount of other APs each AP must repeat for.
To jump over longer distances between users, just buy another AP and configure it as a repeater, but do not connect its ethernet. Then just find a neighbour who might not be interested in sharing the connection, but is willing to host an AP, to place the AP with.
When chosing locations for these APs, which in effect are true repeaters, the highest locations are the best. If you can find somebody with a two or three story house on elevated ground, you might be able to bounce signals for APs up to 600 meters away, I don't guarantee it though. Experiment.
A really nice side benifit of building your wide area guerilla network in this way is that you maintain denyability:
WDS repeater mode does not require that APs which repeat for each other share the same SSID, instead, WDS repeaters recognize their peers by MAC address.
This means, each AP can still have its own SSID. Roaming between the APs is provided by IAPP, so you need not worry about your wireless device not wanting to hop between SSIDs, it is instructed to do so automatically.
The denyability part comes in here. What you want to do is break the conventional rule that dictates that one should chose an SSID that is as vague and non-descript as possible, especially, one should never give away one's location or identity.
In this case, we break this convention by chosing SSIDs that are as descriptive as we possibly can. Then, if anybody should ever come knocking on your door, you can just tell them: "Well, look, the SSID says MYNAME, this AP is for my house, so I can use my PDA and my sister can use her laptop and so on...".
Your neighbour can just say: "Well, look, my SSID is set to HISNAME, it's just for me and my girlfriend to use my laptop around the house... "
Since WDS only retransmits frames and not SSID broadcasts, there is no way for any regulatory authority goon to prove that your APs are really "AP-repeaters" running in WDS mode. They will only see each AP's SSID broadcasts in that AP's actual coverage footprint.
To their feeble Wi-Fi finder devices, it will look as if there are a myriad of small, independant wireless networks, not one large repeater tree.
The frames propagating throughout the entire area can be explained as "stray signals, probably reflected by Mr. X's tin roof, or the water tower, or what ever... ", not that I think your standard ICASA goon will notice, since their Wi-Fi finder listens for broadcast SSID, not network frames. []
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
As far as I can tell, there is no limit on this. You will have to bear in mind that it does entail a slight performance hit, supposedly, it breaks the maximum possible throughput down to 5.5MBps, I've never really noticed slowdowns on my network though.
Setting it up should be fairly straight forward. The best way to do it would be to work the same way as 802.1d spanning tree ethernet bridges, but manually.
WDS allows for setting up repeaters to repeat for specific APs only, so, AP 2 can repeat for AP 1 and 3 but AP 1 and 3 only repeat for AP 2. Since AP 2 is repeating for 1 and 3, a frame from an ethernet netework connected to AP 1 can be broadcast, repeated for AP 1 by AP 2, received by AP 3 and bridged back to an ethernet behind AP 3.
Perhaps I should explain in diagram form:
|ETHERNET|
||
| AP 1 |
||
|TO-AP-2|
||
\/
RADIO SIGNAL
/\
||
|TO-AP-1|
||
| AP 2 |
||
|TO-AP-3|
||
\/
RADIO SIGNAL
/\
||
|TO-AP-2|
||
| AP 3 |
||
|ETHERNET|
In other words, AP 2 would receive the radio signal from AP 1 and bridge any frames to its ethernet port (if it is connected to a network), and also retransmit the signal to its coverage footprint.
AP 3 would receive the retransmitted signal and in turn bridge the frames to its ethernet block, and yet again retransmit the frame to its coverage area.
You could keep going ad infinitum with a chain like this, since each AP only has to repeat signals for one or two other APs, which are in turn repeating signals for other APs. In this way, your signal should propagate to every AP and your ethernet frames should propagate to every ethernet network or wireless device connected to each AP.
WDS has built in safeties to prevent feedback loops, so you need not worry that AP 2 will repeat a signal it got from AP 3 which AP 3 just got from AP 2, etc.
Be sure not to set up repeater links between APs if they aren't needed. Each AP should only repeat for other APs that are just on the threshold of its coverage footprint.
Bouncing the signal in this way, you should be able to build a discreet network that can span several kilometers, without needing high gain antennas that attract a lot of attention, or worse, amplifiers, which are totally illegal.
The general coverage footprint you can expect from the A16B is about 300 meters when repeating for other APs, regardless of line of sight, and about 50 - 300 meters when talking to wireless client devices, depending on line of sight and the strength of the device.
So, for a network that can effectively bounce your signals over long distances, with minimal impact on performance, you will want one repeater AP at least every 300 meters.
If you place your repeaters in a straight line, you should be able to get a coverage area in one street of 1 kilometer or more with 4 of these little APs.
If you build in a star topology, you could feasibly create a mesh with limitless coverage around your area. Just make sure to be as economical as you can be in terms of the amount of other APs each AP must repeat for.
To jump over longer distances between users, just buy another AP and configure it as a repeater, but do not connect its ethernet. Then just find a neighbour who might not be interested in sharing the connection, but is willing to host an AP, to place the AP with.
When chosing locations for these APs, which in effect are true repeaters, the highest locations are the best. If you can find somebody with a two or three story house on elevated ground, you might be able to bounce signals for APs up to 600 meters away, I don't guarantee it though. Experiment.
A really nice side benifit of building your wide area guerilla network in this way is that you maintain denyability:
WDS repeater mode does not require that APs which repeat for each other share the same SSID, instead, WDS repeaters recognize their peers by MAC address.
This means, each AP can still have its own SSID. Roaming between the APs is provided by IAPP, so you need not worry about your wireless device not wanting to hop between SSIDs, it is instructed to do so automatically.
The denyability part comes in here. What you want to do is break the conventional rule that dictates that one should chose an SSID that is as vague and non-descript as possible, especially, one should never give away one's location or identity.
In this case, we break this convention by chosing SSIDs that are as descriptive as we possibly can. Then, if anybody should ever come knocking on your door, you can just tell them: "Well, look, the SSID says MYNAME, this AP is for my house, so I can use my PDA and my sister can use her laptop and so on...".
Your neighbour can just say: "Well, look, my SSID is set to HISNAME, it's just for me and my girlfriend to use my laptop around the house... "
Since WDS only retransmits frames and not SSID broadcasts, there is no way for any regulatory authority goon to prove that your APs are really "AP-repeaters" running in WDS mode. They will only see each AP's SSID broadcasts in that AP's actual coverage footprint.
To their feeble Wi-Fi finder devices, it will look as if there are a myriad of small, independant wireless networks, not one large repeater tree.
The frames propagating throughout the entire area can be explained as "stray signals, probably reflected by Mr. X's tin roof, or the water tower, or what ever... ", not that I think your standard ICASA goon will notice, since their Wi-Fi finder listens for broadcast SSID, not network frames. [
]Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Actually thinking about it for R1000 per node (AP + decent UPS) you could build a pretty reliable network with minimal maintenance. All you would then need is a permanent internet connection and perhaps a server for authentication. You could then sell accounts to people in the neighbourhood and just give a free account to those you host your AP's with.
That should not be too tricky to do.
There are a number of ways of getting the needed permanent internet connection. The easiest is to just use the uncapped ADSL accounts from DataPro.
At your point, set up a RADIUS server to do remote 802.1x authentication. With the 1.192 firmware, the A16B's support 802.1x network authentication, so all you need do is set up your server and configure all of your APs to do 802.1x and you're ready to go.
The people hosting the AP would not even need a free account, unless they are planning to use their own wireless devices with it. Since it is on their site anyway, they could just run a wire from their ethernet switch to the AP and they have instant direct access to the network.
A free account for each host is still a good idea though, as it will allow them to use their own wireless devices on the network and to roam the network.
There's a strange and undocumented "accidental feature" in the A16B's that make them perfect for this kind of service. While they will repeat all traffic they are set up for and bridge all traffic to ethernet, they will not allow two client nodes on the network to talk to each other.
In other words, they operate in real infrastructure mode, meaning your client nodes will be able to see the internet, any unfirewalled hosts on your ethernet network and any unfirewalled hosts on your AP hosts' ethernets, but will not be able to see each other. This should automatically address any security concerns they may have.
For any users that are connected directly to the AP by ethernet, just add some kind of firewall to the line, even a Windows box doing connection sharing should do the trick very nicely. A FreeBSD box with stateful ipfw rules and natd might be a more elegant solution though. []
As a side note, you might also want to outfit your "NOC" with a transparent proxy, preferably some kind of UNIX machine (FreeBSD *hint*) running Squid, with lots of RAM (1GB+ recommended) and lots of disk space (160GB+ recommended). Set up your proxy with an extremely large file limit, say 200MB.
Now, large, but popular files, downloaded from anywhere on your network, will be captured by your transparent proxy, without the users having any need to set up proxy settings or any such tripe.
Next time somebody downloads the file, it will be served to them from your proxy, not over the internet. This means, once one user has downloaded the latest Windows Update patch, everybody else will be getting it at speeds of up to 1MB/s, which will make your users worship you as a demigod of throughput.
You might want to also use this machine, or preferably a second UNIX machine, but still with healthy specifications, to act as a mail server for your small network. Now, you can really sweeten the deal for your users by hosting domains for them so they can be theirname@theirdomain.co.za, or what ever they want.
Such a mail server would be mostly underutilized though, so, if you happen to have a lot of gamers in the area, use its extra processing power and RAM to run dedicated servers of popular games. UNIX server software for most games is freely available today.
Your users will absolutely love the ability to spend their weekends blasting each other in to clouds of non-contiguous pixels without having to drag all their gear to somebody's house, or play on overseas servers where high latency means they are always at a disadvantage.
Heck, if you are enterprising, you could even install some extra software on your box to offer your clients other value added services such as remote data back-ups, a neighbourhood IRC or IM server and possibly even VoIP.
Don't do VoIP unless you want Telkom breathing down your neck though. While you may be able to get away with sprinkling your neighbourhood with small wireless networks that are actually one big network, allowing your users to phone each other for free would certainly get you in to heaps of trouble.
There's no law against running IRC or IM servers for your users though. Having an open "community chatline" has all sorts of advantages.
Think of the advantage your neighbourhood watch could have if they could post tips on suspicious characters to all your users from a laptop in their patrol car, not to mention the social possibilities of such a system for people in the community.
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
There are a number of ways of getting the needed permanent internet connection. The easiest is to just use the uncapped ADSL accounts from DataPro.
At your point, set up a RADIUS server to do remote 802.1x authentication. With the 1.192 firmware, the A16B's support 802.1x network authentication, so all you need do is set up your server and configure all of your APs to do 802.1x and you're ready to go.
The people hosting the AP would not even need a free account, unless they are planning to use their own wireless devices with it. Since it is on their site anyway, they could just run a wire from their ethernet switch to the AP and they have instant direct access to the network.
A free account for each host is still a good idea though, as it will allow them to use their own wireless devices on the network and to roam the network.
There's a strange and undocumented "accidental feature" in the A16B's that make them perfect for this kind of service. While they will repeat all traffic they are set up for and bridge all traffic to ethernet, they will not allow two client nodes on the network to talk to each other.
In other words, they operate in real infrastructure mode, meaning your client nodes will be able to see the internet, any unfirewalled hosts on your ethernet network and any unfirewalled hosts on your AP hosts' ethernets, but will not be able to see each other. This should automatically address any security concerns they may have.
For any users that are connected directly to the AP by ethernet, just add some kind of firewall to the line, even a Windows box doing connection sharing should do the trick very nicely. A FreeBSD box with stateful ipfw rules and natd might be a more elegant solution though. [
]As a side note, you might also want to outfit your "NOC" with a transparent proxy, preferably some kind of UNIX machine (FreeBSD *hint*) running Squid, with lots of RAM (1GB+ recommended) and lots of disk space (160GB+ recommended). Set up your proxy with an extremely large file limit, say 200MB.
Now, large, but popular files, downloaded from anywhere on your network, will be captured by your transparent proxy, without the users having any need to set up proxy settings or any such tripe.
Next time somebody downloads the file, it will be served to them from your proxy, not over the internet. This means, once one user has downloaded the latest Windows Update patch, everybody else will be getting it at speeds of up to 1MB/s, which will make your users worship you as a demigod of throughput.
You might want to also use this machine, or preferably a second UNIX machine, but still with healthy specifications, to act as a mail server for your small network. Now, you can really sweeten the deal for your users by hosting domains for them so they can be theirname@theirdomain.co.za, or what ever they want.
Such a mail server would be mostly underutilized though, so, if you happen to have a lot of gamers in the area, use its extra processing power and RAM to run dedicated servers of popular games. UNIX server software for most games is freely available today.
Your users will absolutely love the ability to spend their weekends blasting each other in to clouds of non-contiguous pixels without having to drag all their gear to somebody's house, or play on overseas servers where high latency means they are always at a disadvantage.
Heck, if you are enterprising, you could even install some extra software on your box to offer your clients other value added services such as remote data back-ups, a neighbourhood IRC or IM server and possibly even VoIP.
Don't do VoIP unless you want Telkom breathing down your neck though. While you may be able to get away with sprinkling your neighbourhood with small wireless networks that are actually one big network, allowing your users to phone each other for free would certainly get you in to heaps of trouble.
There's no law against running IRC or IM servers for your users though. Having an open "community chatline" has all sorts of advantages.
Think of the advantage your neighbourhood watch could have if they could post tips on suspicious characters to all your users from a laptop in their patrol car, not to mention the social possibilities of such a system for people in the community.
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
buckinghamrd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 15
Thanx for all the advice guys - especially podo.
Have ordered 2 Gigabyte AP's R495 ex VAT each - will let you know how it goes.[]
Have ordered 2 Gigabyte AP's R495 ex VAT each - will let you know how it goes.[
]buckinghamrd - If it's not too late here's an online vendor with these AP's for R450 excl VAT
http://www.dantec.co.za (I have used them before and no I am in no way affiliated)
podo - on the off chance have you used the Gigabyte wireless gateway B49G?
http://www.dantec.co.za (I have used them before and no I am in no way affiliated)
podo - on the off chance have you used the Gigabyte wireless gateway B49G?
Unfortunately not, but it did get a good review (8 out of 10) from NeoSeeker, which you can read here: http://www.neoseeker.com/Articles/Hardware/Reviews/GN-B49G/
In terms of pure performance, a LinkSys router of more or less the same class will give you slightly better throughput and signal strength.
However, in terms of pricing and features, I can really recommend any Gigabyte WLAN products. They pack incredible features for really reasonable prices.
The B49G will give you Atheros "Super-G" mode, which means you could feasibly get 108MBps if you have a wireless network card with "Super-G" support and don't step too far from the router, don't expect 108MBps througout the house though.
In terms of range, the Gigabyte devices are generally better than this review seems to indicate.
I have managed to download at the full speed my ADSL line can provide, sitting in the dining room with an HP/Compaq nx9110. The dining room is about 20 meters from the office (where my A16B sits) and there are three concrete walls and one closet full of winter clothing directly in the way.
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
In terms of pure performance, a LinkSys router of more or less the same class will give you slightly better throughput and signal strength.
However, in terms of pricing and features, I can really recommend any Gigabyte WLAN products. They pack incredible features for really reasonable prices.
The B49G will give you Atheros "Super-G" mode, which means you could feasibly get 108MBps if you have a wireless network card with "Super-G" support and don't step too far from the router, don't expect 108MBps througout the house though.
In terms of range, the Gigabyte devices are generally better than this review seems to indicate.
I have managed to download at the full speed my ADSL line can provide, sitting in the dining room with an HP/Compaq nx9110. The dining room is about 20 meters from the office (where my A16B sits) and there are three concrete walls and one closet full of winter clothing directly in the way.
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
buckinghamrd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 15
Thanx KB unfortunately it will almost cost the difference to get it to Port Elizabeth - guess we have to be punished somehow for living in such awesome town. []
Plus getting it local means I get to play this weekend[]
] Plus getting it local means I get to play this weekend[
]buckinghamrd - sorry to hear, guess we all have a cross to bear.
podo - Decided to order one as it appears to be a well featured adsl router, particularly for the price. Most importantly seems to be getting good reviews. Here's another:
http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rid=68003
podo - Decided to order one as it appears to be a well featured adsl router, particularly for the price. Most importantly seems to be getting good reviews. Here's another:
http://www.neoseeker.com/resourcelink.html?rid=68003
buckinghamrd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 15
Hi guys - I was only able to get one of the A16B AP's and wireless card for my notebook. Works great around the house and garden. To test the '3 neighbours away' connection I setup the AP outside high up on the wall and tried to connect in his garden. Distance is approx 65 m only thing seperating us is some dense trees. no go. Question is with a second AP on his side will it be able to pickup this obviously weak signal better than the wireless card? Also does vegitation effect the signal that badly?
no go. Question is with a second AP on his side will it be able to pickup this obviously weak signal better than the wireless card? Also does vegitation effect the signal that badly?buckinghamrd,
If you can get both APs high up, you shouldn't have a problem picking them up. Vegetation can effect the signal, but not adversely, the only time you might have a real problem is if you have an extremely large tree sitting directly between your antennae, in such a case, with omnidirectional antennas you should still get a signal, but it will be reflected off other objects, so it will obviously be weak.
With our first A16B, we could not get my neighbour's laptop to connect at all. There was about 25 meters and one asbestos pre-fab wall between us. As it turns out, asbestos is bad for microwaves. After adding a second A16B at his house, everything works perfectly.
The built in antennae you generally find in laptops produce a very weak signal, this is due to safety reasons. Since you will be literally sitting with your hands right on the antenna all day, using strong microwaves there is not such a good idea. The transmitters and antennae in the APs are generally much better, since the manual warns you to always stay at least 20cm from your AP when it's working, they can afford to generate a microwave that's a little bit more potent.
Currently, our set-up is as such:
One A16B at my house connected to my ethernet switch. Placed in a rack only about 80cm from the ground.
One A16B in my neighbour's living room, placed on a mantle piece about 1.2m from the ground, not connected to anything (repeater mode only.)
Between the APs there are three concrete walls, one asbestos wall and about 30m. This set-up has been quite successfull. My neighbour can use his laptop around his house. He can also connect from the PC in his store room which has a USB wireless card retrofitted to it. The two APs repeat for each other in WDS mode which means packets from his client devices can reach my ethernet by first bouncing over his AP, then over mine and on to the switch.
(For those of you wondering why he has this, it just so happens there is also an ethernet to ADSL bridge connected to that same switch. [}])
If I might offer a tip, try not to place your APs outside, the A16B isn't rated to be weather resistant, so it might bet into trouble if left exposed to the elements. Also, don't place it inside a metal box, as that will completely dampen the signal. If you can find a reasonably high spot at both ends with minimal objects in between, you should get very reasonable signal strength between the APs.
A good place to position an AP in this way would be to mount it on the wall just above a window, with the antenna facing downward sothat if you stand outside the window, it appears the antenna is protruding from the concrete above the window.
Do not point the antennae on the APs directly at each other. Since the omnidirectional antennae used on the A16B are "near-perfect" isotropic radiators, the strongest signal escapes to the sides of the antenna, not from the tip as would be expected. The signal from the tip of an isotropic antenna is actually the weakest. Thus, for the window set-up I just described, you would do best to have both antennae pointing straight down.
If any of the neighbours in between have tin roofs and you can not get your APs above their roof level, you may have a problem. Metal reflects any microwaves, so hitting an inclined tin roof will either send your microwave right back at you, or bounce it into infinity, to be picked up by an alarmed satellite operator somewhere. If you have such roofs in the area and can not send your signal over them, try getting your APs under roof level and going straight through your neighbour's houses.
If there are too many walls and foliage in between, you might, as a last desperate measure, get the middle of the tree neighbours to host an AP in repeater mode. He need not do much, just plug it in somewhere relatively high up and more or less in the middle of your beam. It consumes almost no power at all, so he won't notice it. This approach will cost you an extra AP though, so the exercise will start to become quite expensive, save this for a last resort only.
You might also try to build condensers for your APs. Bend a flat metal plate sothat it looks like a half circle and place it behind the AP so that the open side points directly at the other AP. This will capture all microwaves transmitted to your side by the omnidirectional antenna and concentrate them in the direction of the other AP. I don't recommend this though as you might approach gain levels that exceed safety limits for microwave transmission. It will also mean that wireless devices in either house will not be able to see the APs, they will only see each other.
Alternatively, if your neighbour's network card supports an external antenna, you could also get a narrow beam directional antenna and plug it in to his system, then point it directly at your omnidirectional antenna. However, that's not guaranteed to work and again you will have safety to worry about, most directional antennae produce very high gain levels, which means that you do not really want to spend more than two or three seconds standing directly in the beam. Spend about 12 hours in the beam of a high-gain directional antenna and you might be found lying extra crispy in front of your computer. []
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
If you can get both APs high up, you shouldn't have a problem picking them up. Vegetation can effect the signal, but not adversely, the only time you might have a real problem is if you have an extremely large tree sitting directly between your antennae, in such a case, with omnidirectional antennas you should still get a signal, but it will be reflected off other objects, so it will obviously be weak.
With our first A16B, we could not get my neighbour's laptop to connect at all. There was about 25 meters and one asbestos pre-fab wall between us. As it turns out, asbestos is bad for microwaves. After adding a second A16B at his house, everything works perfectly.
The built in antennae you generally find in laptops produce a very weak signal, this is due to safety reasons. Since you will be literally sitting with your hands right on the antenna all day, using strong microwaves there is not such a good idea. The transmitters and antennae in the APs are generally much better, since the manual warns you to always stay at least 20cm from your AP when it's working, they can afford to generate a microwave that's a little bit more potent.
Currently, our set-up is as such:
One A16B at my house connected to my ethernet switch. Placed in a rack only about 80cm from the ground.
One A16B in my neighbour's living room, placed on a mantle piece about 1.2m from the ground, not connected to anything (repeater mode only.)
Between the APs there are three concrete walls, one asbestos wall and about 30m. This set-up has been quite successfull. My neighbour can use his laptop around his house. He can also connect from the PC in his store room which has a USB wireless card retrofitted to it. The two APs repeat for each other in WDS mode which means packets from his client devices can reach my ethernet by first bouncing over his AP, then over mine and on to the switch.
(For those of you wondering why he has this, it just so happens there is also an ethernet to ADSL bridge connected to that same switch. [}
])If I might offer a tip, try not to place your APs outside, the A16B isn't rated to be weather resistant, so it might bet into trouble if left exposed to the elements. Also, don't place it inside a metal box, as that will completely dampen the signal. If you can find a reasonably high spot at both ends with minimal objects in between, you should get very reasonable signal strength between the APs.
A good place to position an AP in this way would be to mount it on the wall just above a window, with the antenna facing downward sothat if you stand outside the window, it appears the antenna is protruding from the concrete above the window.
Do not point the antennae on the APs directly at each other. Since the omnidirectional antennae used on the A16B are "near-perfect" isotropic radiators, the strongest signal escapes to the sides of the antenna, not from the tip as would be expected. The signal from the tip of an isotropic antenna is actually the weakest. Thus, for the window set-up I just described, you would do best to have both antennae pointing straight down.
If any of the neighbours in between have tin roofs and you can not get your APs above their roof level, you may have a problem. Metal reflects any microwaves, so hitting an inclined tin roof will either send your microwave right back at you, or bounce it into infinity, to be picked up by an alarmed satellite operator somewhere. If you have such roofs in the area and can not send your signal over them, try getting your APs under roof level and going straight through your neighbour's houses.
If there are too many walls and foliage in between, you might, as a last desperate measure, get the middle of the tree neighbours to host an AP in repeater mode. He need not do much, just plug it in somewhere relatively high up and more or less in the middle of your beam. It consumes almost no power at all, so he won't notice it. This approach will cost you an extra AP though, so the exercise will start to become quite expensive, save this for a last resort only.
You might also try to build condensers for your APs. Bend a flat metal plate sothat it looks like a half circle and place it behind the AP so that the open side points directly at the other AP. This will capture all microwaves transmitted to your side by the omnidirectional antenna and concentrate them in the direction of the other AP. I don't recommend this though as you might approach gain levels that exceed safety limits for microwave transmission. It will also mean that wireless devices in either house will not be able to see the APs, they will only see each other.
Alternatively, if your neighbour's network card supports an external antenna, you could also get a narrow beam directional antenna and plug it in to his system, then point it directly at your omnidirectional antenna. However, that's not guaranteed to work and again you will have safety to worry about, most directional antennae produce very high gain levels, which means that you do not really want to spend more than two or three seconds standing directly in the beam. Spend about 12 hours in the beam of a high-gain directional antenna and you might be found lying extra crispy in front of your computer. [
]Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
buckinghamrd
Member
- Joined
- Mar 12, 2004
- Messages
- 15
Cool will try what you suggested so as second AP arrives - If I did put it outside (only if I have to) I was thinking of using a fireglass electrical box which is pretty weather proof.
Makes sense what you said about the notebook card as it very soon looses the signal when you but a bit of distance between it and the AP. @ 15m and 3 brick walls signal was on its weakest.
Tim
Makes sense what you said about the notebook card as it very soon looses the signal when you but a bit of distance between it and the AP. @ 15m and 3 brick walls signal was on its weakest.
Tim
Well, if at least one side is glass, the box should do just fine, just not a full metal box, since that will turn all of your signal in on itself.
Good luck, let me know if it works. []
Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development
Good luck, let me know if it works. [
]Willie Viljoen
Web Developer
Adaptive Web Development