New York sushi restaurant owner BANS tips, raises waitress pay.

[Icarium]

On the topic of whether tips or not affect service, just bear in mind that labour laws over there are a lot more lax than here. So if you're a waitron at a top establishment such as this, if your service isn't up to par you'll be out on your ear a few minutes later. So *there* it will probably work. Here, where we're up to our eyeballs in labour laws to protect even inept employees, not so much.

 

[SoulTax]

^ Agreed.

Another concern that I have is how much of that price hike is actually going to the waitpersons' salary. I would imagine that if the price hike was 20%, that only 10% of that would be going to the waiters. Can never trust the man with the checkbook to be fair.

 

[noxibox]

Tips are a stupid system. They don't guarantee good service and are fundamentally arbitrary.

I pay a tip based on the performance of the waiter/tress. I don't want to pay a fixed price and the person gets 3 of the 6 items ordered wrong in some way, I payed no tip in that case. I've given 25% tips on great performance.

You also think if a shop assistant makes an error their pay should be docked? What about if a coder makes a mistake in the code they write? If my doctor can't figure out what's wrong must he lose some of his pay?

If you are earning dollars and working in dollars , is acceptable

No it isn't.

This. No tip means no reason for the waitor to excel. We'll all get substandard service delivery now as payment is not dependant on performance.

Right, because all types of business work on tips.

 

[supersunbird]

You also think if a shop assistant makes an error their pay should be docked? What about if a coder makes a mistake in the code they write? If my doctor can't figure out what's wrong must he lose some of his pay?

No, but if they dont want to work it should be. How do you get three items of 6 wrong? It's because you dont listen properly and write it down correctly.

I can return products I am not happy with at other places and send e-mails and stuff and rate the service (in a eatery that is dangerous, sending stuff back to the kitchen).

 

[cerebus]

No, but if they dont want to work it should be. How do you get three items of 6 wrong? It's because you dont listen properly and write it down correctly.

Yes but why is the training and 'discipline' of that waiter YOUR responsibility? Because effectively that's what you're doing - penalising him at your discretion rather than taking the brunt of your displeasure out on the restaurant who supposedly trained him.

I can return products I am not happy with at other places and send e-mails and stuff and rate the service (in a eatery that is dangerous, sending stuff back to the kitchen).

Tipping is arbitrary, manipulable (studies show that only around 4% of tipping variance is due to quality of service - the rest comes down to a huge number of factors, including the attractiveness and skin colour of your waitress - there's an argument that it's actually a discriminatory practice), and it creates an uncomfortable situation between you and your service provider. There are better, more consistent and equitable ways of ensuring that your service is up to scratch.

 

[GreGorGy]

Since this is being discussed, and hopefully this isn't OT, but Harry's in Dullstroom, for example, have a sign up stating that tabs will be marked up by 15% service charge.

MY gut feel is that this is against the law - more specifically, the CPA. You are selling me something (service) that I cannot return. Just because I ordered food (which I could).

If the service was shocking - say 20 minutes between drinks order and beer - I can't return the service unless I return the beer.

 

[noxibox]

In SA perhaps. In the states waiters at decent restaurants consider themselves professionals and will do a good job because they have a sense of pride. Do you expect a tip from your boss every time you get something right?

In my experience waiters in restaurants in South Africa were generally treated like sh*t. In a normal office the same attitude and behaviour by management would be considered a hostile work environment and anyone leaving would have a case for constructive dismissal.

 

[cerebus]

Since this is being discussed, and hopefully this isn't OT, but Harry's in Dullstroom, for example, have a sign up stating that tabs will be marked up by 15% service charge.

MY gut feel is that this is against the law - more specifically, the CPA. You are selling me something (service) that I cannot return. Just because I ordered food (which I could).

It's absolutely not against the law. Arguably, there's a case to be made for the unconstitutionality of tipping as a practice because it's discriminatory - not all waiters/esses are going to receive equal gratuities, irregardless of their quality of service. If you get shoddy service, COMPLAIN publicly and do not patronise again, or even refuse payment if it's an extreme case. You have equally as much empowerment there as you do with the food you receive.

 

[noxibox]

No, but if they dont want to work it should be. How do you get three items of 6 wrong? It's because you dont listen properly and write it down correctly.

Maybe you mumble, maybe it's a noisy environment. My point stands, if you think a waiter should receive less pay because an error was made then you must support it being done to everyone no matter what their job. You included. Hope you're infallible.

in a eatery that is dangerous, sending stuff back to the kitchen

Bull.

Since this is being discussed, and hopefully this isn't OT, but Harry's in Dullstroom, for example, have a sign up stating that tabs will be marked up by 15% service charge.

Now that type of thing just irritates me. If something is mandatory, then just include it in the quoted price.

MY gut feel is that this is against the law - more specifically, the CPA. You are selling me something (service) that I cannot return. Just because I ordered food (which I could).

That would make selling any service against the law, including providing waiters at all. Not to mention that you'd have to cook your own food and wash your own dishes because the restaurant is including those services in the price of your meal.

If the service was shocking - say 20 minutes between drinks order and beer - I can't return the service unless I return the beer.

People forget, get sidetracked. It could be the individual who handles the drinks. It is however trivial to attract the waiter's attention and remind them that you are waiting for your drink or to ask the manager to look into why drinks take a long time.

 

[GreGorGy]

It's absolutely not against the law. Arguably, there's a case to be made for the unconstitutionality of tipping as a practice because it's discriminatory - not all waiters/esses are going to receive equal gratuities, irregardless of their quality of service. If you get shoddy service, COMPLAIN publicly and do not patronise again, or even refuse payment if it's an extreme case. You have equally as much empowerment there as you do with the food you receive.

I think you mean regardless...

You speak with authority (absolutely above) - may I ask where this authority comes from?

 

[GreGorGy]

That would make selling any service against the law, including providing waiters at all. Not to mention that you'd have to cook your own food and wash your own dishes because the restaurant is including those services in the price of your meal.

How? The service is rewarded at the discretion of the served? The product is PREPARED food - not the ingredients.

 

[cerebus]

I think you mean regardless...

I do yes!!

You speak with authority (absolutely above) - may I ask where this authority comes from?

From the July Freakonomics podcast on this very subject

How? The service is rewarded at the discretion of the served? The product is PREPARED food - not the ingredients.

Yes but you can't dock the dishwashers for spots on your cutlery or the cook for burned or late food. That is the responsibility of the restaurant as it should be. Why do you then get to decree how much your food usher gets?

 

[GreGorGy]

I do yes!!





From the July Freakonomics podcast on this very subject

Freakonomics is US - what does it mean for SA's CPA?

Yes but you can't dock the dishwashers for spots on your cutlery or the cook for burned or late food. That is the responsibility of the restaurant as it should be. Why do you then get to decree how much your food usher gets?

You can send it back though and have it removed from your bill. You see, burnt toast gets returned and taken off the bill. And the reason I get to decree the amount the food usher gets is the whole rationale behind tipping in the first place. By telling me how much my tip will be, that right is removed. So I vote with my wallet of course.

 

[Chevron]

From the July Freakonomics podcast on this very subject


Yes but you can't dock the dishwashers for spots on your cutlery or the cook for burned or late food. That is the responsibility of the restaurant as it should be. Why do you then get to decree how much your food usher gets?

Because waitrons face clients they need to be incentivized to give good service. Otherwise they'd all give crap service.

It's not really hard to understand. And yes, not everyone tips the same. It's part of life. You deal with it.

 

[cerebus]

Freakonomics is US - what does it mean for SA's CPA?

You mean there aren't any anti-discriminatory clauses in SA's CPA?

You can send it back though and have it removed from your bill. You see, burnt toast gets returned and taken off the bill. And the reason I get to decree the amount the food usher gets is the whole rationale behind tipping in the first place. By telling me how much my tip will be, that right is removed. So I vote with my wallet of course.

Listen to the podcast. 96% of the variance of your tip comes from factors that you haven't got any conscious control over; and nothing to do with quality of service. If your waiter touched you, your tip will increase; if they flirted, it will increase; if they knelt rather than stood, it will increase; if you were a different skin colour your tipping amount would change by a certain amount. This isn't some codified process that you have that much conscious control over; your waiters are at the mercy of your disposition, and are manipulating you with body language or otherwise losing out by not manipulating you.

Because waitrons face clients they need to be incentivized to give good service. Otherwise they'd all give crap service.

That's arbitrary, again. You end up in an awkward no-mans land of body-language attrition while trying to determine how much to give this person based on your desire for them to like you, the weather, the time of the month and a raft of other factors - not least of which is bullying (as recipients of the 'service' provided by our local car guards can attest). Anyway you don't tip the teller at the grocery story but they face clients; you don't tip a number of equally client facing service providers.

 

[GreGorGy]

You mean there aren't any anti-discriminatory clauses in SA's CPA?


Listen to the podcast. 96% of the variance of your tip comes from factors that you haven't got any conscious control over; and nothing to do with quality of service. If your waiter touched you, your tip will increase; if they flirted, it will increase; if they knelt rather than stood, it will increase; if you were a different skin colour your tipping amount would change by a certain amount. This isn't some codified process that you have that much conscious control over; your waiters are at the mercy of your disposition, and are manipulating you with body language or otherwise losing out by not manipulating you.

Ah - I see what you mean. Lemme check that podcast later (this PC doesn't have speakers) on my mac.

What do you mean by anti-discriminatory clauses?

 

[cerebus]

Ah - I see what you mean. Lemme check that podcast later (this PC doesn't have speakers) on my mac.

What do you mean by anti-discriminatory clauses?

The point they made in there is that the anti-discrimination laws in US employment cover instances where the discrimination is incidental, that is just part of the nature of the job. And they argued that the practice of tipping would fall under such a jurisdiction.

 

[Chevron]

That's arbitrary, again. You end up in an awkward no-mans land of body-language attrition while trying to determine how much to give this person based on your desire for them to like you, the weather, the time of the month and a raft of other factors - not least of which is bullying (as recipients of the 'service' provided by our local car guards can attest). Anyway you don't tip the teller at the grocery story but they face clients; you don't tip a number of equally client facing service providers.

I take it you have never been a waitor before. It's really not that complicated from a tipping perspective.

Average service:10%
Great service more than 10%
Crap service less than 10%

As for manipulating clients I wouldn't call it that. Knowing what your table wants in a waitor is skill you need to learn. Some people want silent waitors. Some people want a waitor that can tell jokes. It's the waitors job to keep the client happy.

 

[cerebus]

I take it you have never been a waitor before. It's really not that complicated from a tipping perspective.

I've been a waiter. Some restaurants you get to keep tips. Other restaurants you split them with the staff. Some get put in a jar. Others get put in your pocket. Some depend on it as their livelihood; others pay a salary and tips are a nice extra; arbitrary.

Average service:10%
Great service more than 10%
Crap service less than 10%

....Well, actually more like
Drunk clients 15%
Arguing clients 3%
Female clients 12%
Male clients 5%
Male clients with females 20%
Male clients with males 3%
Rainy day 9%
Sunny day 11%
American 20%
Finland 0%
Black clients 5%
White clients 6%
etc etc etc...

As for manipulating clients I wouldn't call it that. Knowing what your table wants in a waiter is skill you need to learn. Some people want silent waiters. Some people want a waiter that can tell jokes. It's the waiter's job to keep the client happy.

If you touched your patrons when you delivered the cheque, you'd get an average r10 extra per table.

 

[GreGorGy]

If you touched your patrons when you delivered the cheque, you'd get an average r10 extra per table.

Until I listen to the podcast, I'll keep quiet on other issues. Except this. I find it intriguing and I am going to watch it in action. Could be very interesting to observe.