New York sushi restaurant owner BANS tips, raises waitress pay.

[AnibugZA]

My sister worked at an Oriental eatery in London for over a year.
She was paid next to nothing wages, but was told that she would get tips.

Her manager then proceeded to keep all the credit card tips for himself. His reasoning was that if they wanted to tip her, they should have given her cash directly, and that a credit card tip was intended as a tip for the restaurant. But dare she tell her customers that she preferred cash tips...

He also insisted on taking tax off on her wages, even though she had a tax exemption. He told her that she should use the certificate to claim back her tax from the government. When she tried, they refused because he had never paid any of the tax to them, and was not obliged to because she was tax exempt.

She worked in a restaurant that threw away hordes of leftover food daily, while she was practically starving and living off an apple and a yoghurt a day plus a small dinner that her second job (a hotel night concierge job) provided her. He refused to let her have any.

There's a major difference between the tipped and non-tipped wages. I think its a great plan, but it will only work at a restaurant where you know that your staff are good and take pride in delivering quality service. It also forces the owner of the establishment to pay his staff better wages.

I would rather work for a flat rate than go to work every day wondering if I am going to make a decent amount of tips to cover my expenses. It's stressful.

 

[cerebus]

My sister worked at an Oriental eatery in London for over a year.
She was paid next to nothing wages, but was told that she would get tips.

Her manager then proceeded to keep all the credit card tips for himself. His reasoning was that if they wanted to tip her, they should have given her cash directly, and that a credit card tip was intended as a tip for the restaurant. But dare she tell her customers that she preferred cash tips...

He also insisted on taking tax off on her wages, even though she had a tax exemption. He told her that she should use the certificate to claim back her tax from the government. When she tried, they refused because he had never paid any of the tax to them, and was not obliged to because she was tax exempt.

She worked in a restaurant that threw away hordes of leftover food daily, while she was practically starving and living off an apple and a yoghurt a day plus a small dinner that her second job (a hotel night concierge job) provided her. He refused to let her have any.

There's a major difference between the tipped and non-tipped wages. I think its a great plan, but it will only work at a restaurant where you know that your staff are good and take pride in delivering quality service. It also forces the owner of the establishment to pay his staff better wages.

I would rather work for a flat rate than go to work every day wondering if I am going to make a decent amount of tips to cover my expenses. It's stressful.

Yeah this is the main issue with tipping; the relationship between you and the client is one thing; but tipping takes the burden of responsibility off the restaurant owner and places it on one isolated member of their staff - and gives a lot of room for abuse of staff.

 

[Fulcrum29]

I had two buddies working in London, both worked part-time at Planet Hollywood as bartenders and got tipped awesomely (the larger income), one worked daily in security and the other as an aerial/dish installer. Both bought two houses (smallish) in SA when they came back, always mentioning the tips they received. Depends on the market you serve.

I know a guy at Erinvale Hotel, who is cashing nicely, but they do have an interesting income structure as bartenders.

 

[Chevron]

I've been a waiter. Some restaurants you get to keep tips. Other restaurants you split them with the staff. Some get put in a jar. Others get put in your pocket. Some depend on it as their livelihood; others pay a salary and tips are a nice extra; arbitrary.


....Well, actually more like
Drunk clients 15%
Arguing clients 3%
Female clients 12%
Male clients 5%
Male clients with females 20%
Male clients with males 3%
Rainy day 9%
Sunny day 11%
American 20%
Finland 0%
Black clients 5%
White clients 6%
etc etc etc...


If you touched your patrons when you delivered the cheque, you'd get an average r10 extra per table.

And a good waitor knows how to handle his clients and any and all situations that arise. You sound like a lazy but making excuses for himself.
I used to be able to tell even before the client walked in how good tippers they'd be. It all depends on if the waitor cares about what he does doesn't.

And yes. Flirting with female tables does increase the tip size ;-)

 

[cerebus]

And a good waitor knows how to handle his clients and any and all situations that arise. You sound like a lazy but making excuses for himself.

Lol it's been many years since I did it, and I used to get tipped pretty decently. I never considered much about the practice of tipping at the time. It's only now that it's occurred to me what a peculiar system of payment it is. It's as though you're treating the waiter as a separate entity to the restaurant; like the part of the dinner that brings food to you is a kind of third party provider.

 

[noxibox]

My sister worked at an Oriental eatery in London for over a year.
She was paid next to nothing wages, but was told that she would get tips.

Her manager then proceeded to keep all the credit card tips for himself. His reasoning was that if they wanted to tip her, they should have given her cash directly, and that a credit card tip was intended as a tip for the restaurant. But dare she tell her customers that she preferred cash tips...

He also insisted on taking tax off on her wages, even though she had a tax exemption. He told her that she should use the certificate to claim back her tax from the government. When she tried, they refused because he had never paid any of the tax to them, and was not obliged to because she was tax exempt.

Sounds like the sort of ass I found was all too common in the restaurant business. This one appears to be a criminal to boot. They do have laws in the UK to protect workers though.

Because waitrons face clients they need to be incentivized to give good service. Otherwise they'd all give crap service.

Rubbish.

How? The service is rewarded at the discretion of the served? The product is PREPARED food - not the ingredients.

So then you agree that the cook should also work on tips. It's part of the service. The product is the entirety, not simply the cooked food.

It's absolutely not against the law. Arguably, there's a case to be made for the unconstitutionality of tipping as a practice because it's discriminatory - not all waiters/esses are going to receive equal gratuities, irregardless of their quality of service. If you get shoddy service, COMPLAIN publicly and do not patronise again, or even refuse payment if it's an extreme case. You have equally as much empowerment there as you do with the food you receive.

Exactly.

 

[noxibox]

And a good waitor knows how to handle his clients and any and all situations that arise. You sound like a lazy but making excuses for himself.
I used to be able to tell even before the client walked in how good tippers they'd be. It all depends on if the waitor cares about what he does doesn't.

And yes. Flirting with female tables does increase the tip size ;-)

I see now what you're saying. You're someone who needs some incentive other than your pay to give good service, because otherwise you basically wouldn't have bothered. I presume you still need tips to manage to do any work.

 

[GreGorGy]

So then you agree that the cook should also work on tips. It's part of the service. The product is the entirety, not simply the cooked food.

Nooo - you have misunderstood me completely. I am buying a burger, ffs. Giving me a bun, a raw patty and some lettuce is not selling me a burger. I said PREPARED. I am buying prepared food. If it comes as the raw ingredients, I will send it back. the cook works for a salary. The concept of tipping and the industry of serving is based entirely on the DELIVERY or the SERVICE and has little to do with the PRODUCT. I can get as good service at my Wimpy next door as I will get at Browns of Rivonia. Expecting to compare the products is stupid. If the Browns rare fillet in wine is served burnt, in milk with chips I can send it back because it is not what I bought. Same with Wimpy if the patty is raw and the lettuce has a cockroach in it.

The service - the tip i proffer - is entirely different. IT is for the service I received in bringing me my food (was it on time? did I have to flail about for a drink? did you show preference to someone who arrived after me?) and how I choose to reward or punish that service. Mandating a 15% charge suggest that I will get that much worth of service but if I do not, I am screwed.

 

[noxibox]

A major problem with this whole tipping story is that there's no feedback. The waiter has no idea whether they received little or no tip because they provided genuinely bad service, made an honest error, the customer is simply a Scrooge or their coke has worn off. You in fact end up with pissed off and disgruntled staff when they don't get paid in spite of doing the work.

You can send it back though and have it removed from your bill. You see, burnt toast gets returned and taken off the bill. And the reason I get to decree the amount the food usher gets is the whole rationale behind tipping in the first place. By telling me how much my tip will be, that right is removed. So I vote with my wallet of course.

And the same of course applies to bad service as it does anywhere else. When last did you give a shop assistant a tip? Are you in the habit of giving people in Pick n Pay a tip when they're helpful or provide good service? I hear it is completely impossible to have good service provided unless those providing the service work on tips. Must be universally true.

 

[cerebus]

The concept of tipping and the industry of serving is based entirely on the DELIVERY or the SERVICE and has little to do with the PRODUCT.

It helps think of tipping and the industry of serving as an artificial construct, or an alternative economy to the main one. It might be perfectly reasonable that if you like the person who serves you food, you would want to give them an extra amount of money. But then what happens is, that gradually moved from a gratuity to an expectation, to a full-blown culture - where tipping isn't optional it's pretty much mandatory and just cut out of the cost of bill, and the tip isn't a bonus to a normal salary, it's the salary itself (one place I worked at gave me R25 a night, so the tips were the salary).

Now what's happened there is, you've taken the salary of a working class person and made it something that's both optional and nonoptional at the same time. You might feel that you have the right to withhold it, but you wouldn't withhold the salary of any other facet of your restaurant service - that's the domain of the restaurant owners. Rather, they're at your personal whim. If you get them to slave on you all evening and dangle the expectation of a lavish tip, you can skip out on it, let them go hungry, and there's no repercussions. It's a no-man's-land of woolly uncertainties.

 

[koeksGHT]

People don't understand how SA is actually cheaper in some things..

locally produced clothes etc.

 

[noxibox]

Nooo - you have misunderstood me completely. I am buying a burger, ffs. Giving me a bun, a raw patty and some lettuce is not selling me a burger. I said PREPARED. I am buying prepared food. If it comes as the raw ingredients, I will send it back. the cook works for a salary. The concept of tipping and the industry of serving is based entirely on the DELIVERY or the SERVICE and has little to do with the PRODUCT.

No you're buying a package with multiple people involved in delivering it, but you choose to penalise only one element of that chain, arbitrarily because they happen to be the face of the chain.

If the Browns rare fillet in wine is served burnt, in milk with chips I can send it back because it is not what I bought. Same with Wimpy if the patty is raw and the lettuce has a cockroach in it.

You still have to send it back and wait for a replacement hence the cook should have pay docked. You can't argue for a waiter being penalised, but not apply the same to other staff. Hell the manager should have their pay docked for hiring incompetent staff.

The service - the tip i proffer - is entirely different. IT is for the service I received in bringing me my food (was it on time? did I have to flail about for a drink? did you show preference to someone who arrived after me?) and how I choose to reward or punish that service.

So you go into the kitchen to see if the cook is a bit slow, go to the bar to see whether the barman routinely fails to produce requested drinks?

Mandating a 15% charge suggest that I will get that much worth of service but if I do not, I am screwed.

It should just be included in the price.

 

[TheMightyQuinn]

 

[GreGorGy]

Oh god we've wondered OT my fault sorry.

No you're buying a package with multiple people involved in delivering it, but you choose to penalise only one element of that chain, arbitrarily because they happen to be the face of the chain.

Fair enough. So when you signal goes out, and the techie is in the pub having a beer with me instead of fixing the tower, your only recourse is the one element of that chain you can access - the call centre. If you were told your cellphone will incur an extra 15% charge at the end of the month for the call centre, can you honestly tell me you would accept that? If at the end of your grocery shop, you were told a 10% fruit weighers cost would be added, would you be happy?

This is my point. Being forced into a charge because the business deems it necessary for a conduit between you and the kitchen is not my problem. I'd rather tell the chef I want two pancakes. I'd rather open the fridge and get my own damn beer. But, I have to use this agent - this face. If they represent my needs properly, I can reward them. If not, I should have the right to screw them over. They failed to make sure my order was being processed. They had a smoke and a chit chat with their BFF while my coffee was getting cold.

If they explain that it was beyond their control (New chef / broken oven / too many people) I would fully accept that.

You still have to send it back and wait for a replacement hence the cook should have pay docked. You can't argue for a waiter being penalised, but not apply the same to other staff. Hell the manager should have their pay docked for hiring incompetent staff.

I have no control over policy

So you go into the kitchen to see if the cook is a bit slow, go to the bar to see whether the barman routinely fails to produce requested drinks?

I have done this with a regular predictability, actually.

It should just be included in the price.

And that is the crux. Include it - fine. But tell me I must remember that another 15% will be added is BS. I have no issue with the sushi joint's policy - makes perfect sense. But I find myself being subject to arbitrary crap at Harry's and then still having to pay for it? I think not. I think though that it does boil down to what cerebus said above:

It helps think of tipping and the industry of serving as an artificial construct, or an alternative economy to the main one.

And in that sense, I am the employer who gets to chose the wage - doesn't mean I don't pay properly but if an industry styles itself in this manner, I only so much I can do.

 

[GreGorGy]

Oh god we've wondered OT my fault sorry.

No you're buying a package with multiple people involved in delivering it, but you choose to penalise only one element of that chain, arbitrarily because they happen to be the face of the chain.

Fair enough. So when you signal goes out, and the techie is in the pub having a beer with me instead of fixing the tower, your only recourse is the one element of that chain you can access - the call centre. If you were told your cellphone will incur an extra 15% charge at the end of the month for the call centre, can you honestly tell me you would accept that? If at the end of your grocery shop, you were told a 10% fruit weighers cost would be added, would you be happy?

This is my point. Being forced into a charge because the business deems it necessary for a conduit between you and the kitchen is not my problem. I'd rather tell the chef I want two pancakes. I'd rather open the fridge and get my own damn beer. But, I have to use this agent - this face. If they represent my needs properly, I can reward them. If not, I should have the right to screw them over. They failed to make sure my order was being processed. They had a smoke and a chit chat with their BFF while my coffee was getting cold.

If they explain that it was beyond their control (New chef / broken oven / too many people) I would fully accept that.

You still have to send it back and wait for a replacement hence the cook should have pay docked. You can't argue for a waiter being penalised, but not apply the same to other staff. Hell the manager should have their pay docked for hiring incompetent staff.

I have no control over policy

So you go into the kitchen to see if the cook is a bit slow, go to the bar to see whether the barman routinely fails to produce requested drinks?

I have done this with a regular predictability, actually.

It should just be included in the price.

And that is the crux. Include it - fine. But tell me I must remember that another 15% will be added is BS. I have no issue with the sushi joint's policy - makes perfect sense. But I find myself being subject to arbitrary crap at Harry's and then still having to pay for it? I think not. I think though that it does boil down to what cerebus said above:

It helps think of tipping and the industry of serving as an artificial construct, or an alternative economy to the main one.

And in that sense, I am the employer who gets to chose the wage - doesn't mean I don't pay properly but if an industry styles itself in this manner, I only so much I can do.

 

[noxibox]

Statements like this:

Because waitrons face clients they need to be incentivized to give good service. Otherwise they'd all give crap service.

I used to be able to tell even before the client walked in how good tippers they'd be.

Would imply that if both are true then anyone pre-assessed as a poor tipper consequently gets bad service.

From the July Freakonomics podcast on this very subject

It's interesting, but not particularly surprising that quality of service plays essentially no role in the size of a tip. I'm glad to hear there are restaurants doing away with this silly practice.

 

[noxibox]

Fair enough. So when you signal goes out, and the techie is in the pub having a beer with me instead of fixing the tower, your only recourse is the one element of that chain you can access - the call centre. If you were told your cellphone will incur an extra 15% charge at the end of the month for the call centre, can you honestly tell me you would accept that? If at the end of your grocery shop, you were told a 10% fruit weighers cost would be added, would you be happy?

This is my point. Being forced into a charge because the business deems it necessary for a conduit between you and the kitchen is not my problem. I'd rather tell the chef I want two pancakes. I'd rather open the fridge and get my own damn beer. But, I have to use this agent - this face. If they represent my needs properly, I can reward them. If not, I should have the right to screw them over. They failed to make sure my order was being processed. They had a smoke and a chit chat with their BFF while my coffee was getting cold.

That is exactly what we had in the mobile phone business for years, a number of mandatory services that were charged on top of the quoted monthly cost. They were pulling the same lie that restaurant owners are. Don't pretend the food costs a certain amount when there is an expectation that I must pay your waiter staff's wages, regardless of whether it is 'voluntary' or not.

In the end it remains unreasonable to take revenge on the vulnerable party just because one can. There's a long, sordid history of abuse in the restaurant business. It is now illegal, but restaurant owners even used to charge them if someone skipped out without paying and for all breakages.

 

[Keeper]

I pay tips depending on the waiter's performance....

 

[Chevron]

Statements like this:

Would imply that if both are true then anyone pre-assessed as a poor tipper consequently gets bad service.

And it does. At the place I worked at we didn't have designated areas. We took clients as they came in. Some we'd rush to, some we'd avoid hoping someone else would help them.

Very quickly we found that in general blacks don't tip, so there came a point where even the black waitrons didn't want want black tables.

 

[Chevron]

No you're buying a package with multiple people involved in delivering it, but you choose to penalise only one element of that chain, arbitrarily because they happen to be the face of the chain.

It's not arbitrary.

If the cook hands the waitor a half cooked meal it's the waitor's job to take it back to the cook and make sure it's right before he presents it to me.

That's what you seem to be missing. If i get a hair in my food I blame the waitor for not making sure the cook gives out hairless food.

The people in the back just work for the sake of working. It's the waitors that build the strong relationships with clients.

If you get a builder to build you a house and a wall a skeef, do you moan at the builder or do you moan the worker?

The reason waitors exist is so that we don't have to deal with the back end staff. They're supposed to make sure everything runs smoothly. Which is why they get penalized when it doesn't.

It's really starting to look like you have no idea what a waitor's job actually entails.