No decision to prosecute Malema yet - NPA

Emjay

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#21
Is EWC a radical leftist policy or not?

Whether the state takes land for itself or takes it for someone else is irrelevant, both trample all over private property rights and spit in the face of willing buyer-willing seller.

Look at 'Radical Economic Transformation' (CR still talks about this) where the ANC foresees government guiding the economy, increasing the role played by SOEs and expanding the public sector. A more nefarious implication of this is the forced compliance of the private sector. This is most certainly not associated with liberal policy.
I think there are thousands of pages dedicated to the EWC debate on MyBB. EWC is a provision of many other Constitutions, even in Scandinavian constitutions. The radicalism of it comes down to the extent and the manner in which it is used. EWC is required as a tool in many countries for infrastructure development. CR's policy announcements around EWC and the due care that they will be taking has somewhat tempered this discussion, unless you believe the ANC is going to expropriate property to the extent that is reduces our economy to the equivalent of Zimbabwe's. For now, the ANC have been very liberal, but there have not been any extremist policies or actions from their end. They have spoken about a measured and reasonable approach to EWC, and they have not done anything since then to contradict those policy positions. There is talk of it from some factions within the policy, sure, but does not represent official ANC policy stances.

If you follow EFF press releases, speeches at political rallies and gatherings, they talk about the contents of the manifesto. They live and breathe it. They use it to compare the ideologies to other political parties when agreeing to coalitions. There is no way they are going to casually walk away from that and merge into the ANC unless there is some meeting half way in terms of their beliefs. It will do more harm to the ANC than having the EFF members on board.

Edit:

EWC is leftist to answer your question. But that's like stating the Alt Right is right and then trying to lump them into the same category (i.e. Republicans are the same as the Alt Right).
 
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thestaggy

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#22
EWC is a provision of many other Constitutions, even in Scandinavian constitutions.
Could you perhaps provide sources, as I am rather skeptical of this. I cannot see a Scandinavian state taking your land from you without compensation. At least not in their modern incarnations.

I know Norway has ''compulsory expropriation'', which is not the same as EWC as you (land owner) are still compensated. In the event of a land claim, you can;

- Accept the claim and compensation;
- Accept the claim but dispute the compensation;
- Reject the claim

In the event of no voluntary agreement forthcoming, either due to the owner asking a price the state refuses to pay or the owner refusing to sell, the case will be taken to the Valuation Court where the seller will be ''forced'' to accept a fair price as deemed by the Court.

The Norwegian legal description of compulsory acquisition (expropriation) follows from the Constitution of the Kingdom of Norway (Act of 17th May 1814) §105:

“If the State’s needs demands that somebody must leave his movable or immovable property for the public use he should have full compensation from the treasury”
Politically expropriation is considered controversial. In particular local politicians prefer to try all other possibilities first. Some would rather stop any project than implement it by expropriation. Some parties even have this as a principle written into their local party programmes.
It is to be noted that most expropriators use a lot of time, effort and human skills and decency to get to a voluntary agreement. Even if the negotiation fails in the first phase the efforts will normally go on until the Valuation Court has started the proceedings. Even during the proceedings agreement quite often succeeds.

The case is now brought to the Valuation Court. The expropriator has the duty to bring all information needed before the Court. The Court task is to calculate compensations in accordance with the Expropriation Compensation Law. The procedures follow normal court standards with lawyers on both sides. The court’s decision (the compensations and the interpretation of standards) can be appealed to higher courts.

When all appeal possibilities are ended the expropriator can acquire the property after paying the compensation sum and all procedural costs included.
https://www.fig.net/resources/proce...ig2010/papers/ts03f/ts03f_steinsholt_4307.pdf

The ANC could pursue a more moderate path to ''fix'' the country but it can't/won't for ideological reasons and has instead begun upon a populist path that heads further to the left. I don't foresee Zim style takeovers yet, but what I do see is a point of convergence where the ANC blurs the lines between itself and the EFF as it tries to cling on to power.
 
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Emjay

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#23
Could you perhaps provide sources, as I am rather skeptical of this. I cannot see a Scandinavian state taking your land from you without compensation. At least not in their modern incarnations.

I know Norway has ''compulsory expropriation'', which is not the same as EWC as you (land owner) are still compensated. In the event of a land claim, you can;

- Accept the claim and compensation;
- Accept the claim but dispute the compensation;
- Reject the claim

In the event of no voluntary agreement forthcoming, either due to the owner asking a price the state refuses to pay or the owner refusing to sell, the case will be taken to the Valuation Court where the seller will be ''forced'' to accept a fair price as deemed by the Court.

https://www.fig.net/resources/proce...ig2010/papers/ts03f/ts03f_steinsholt_4307.pdf

The ANC could pursue a more moderate path to ''fix'' the country but it can't/won't for ideological reasons and has instead begun upon a populist path that heads further to the left. I don't foresee Zim style takeovers yet, but what I do see is a point of convergence where the ANC blurs the lines between itself and the EFF as it tries to cling on to power.
This was hashed over many, many threads for weeks and weeks. We had someone on these forums that lost family property through appropriation.

Yes, the ANC = EFF in terms of political and economic policy. I have better things to do than engage in this level of debate.
 

thestaggy

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#24
This was hashed over many, many threads for weeks and weeks. We had someone on these forums that lost family property through appropriation.

Yes, the ANC = EFF in terms of political and economic policy. I have better things to do than engage in this level of debate.
That's unfortunate. I've been cordial, no need to sign off with insults.
 

Emjay

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#25
That's unfortunate. I've been cordial, no need to sign off with insults.
The insult is in your head.

The question here is whether the ANC and EFF are similar in terms of their economic and political policy. While the ANC is very populist, and likes implementing far reaching socialist policies, it is still underpinned by a free market. The EFF is very Socialist to the point where means of production would be 100% in state control. If you don't understand the implications of that, you can read the EFF Manifesto as they lay it out in there. Those are very different ideals and policies. They are both in the left, but trying to argue that the ANC and EFF are the same because the ANC believes in EWC is not correct. There can be some overlap between ideologies and policies. That does not mean they are the same.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am not going to waste hours on this topic, as I believe EWC has been debated to death, and some more.

The ANC and EFF could potentially form a coalition if the goals of the two parties align, but I very much doubt Malema would rejoin the ANC, and I doubt that Malema is a front for the ANC in any way. There may be collusion between different politicians within the two parties for personal gain, but these two political parties are incompatible and merging or rejoining would alienate many voters on both ends.
 
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#27
The national wealth of our country, the heritage of all South Africans, shall be restored to the people;
The mineral wealth beneath the soil, the banks and monopoly industry shall be transferred to the ownership of the people as a whole;
All other industry and trade shall be controlled to assist the well-being of the people;
All people shall have equal rights to trade where they choose, to manufacture and to enter all trades, crafts and professions.
Restrictions of land ownership on a racial basis shall be ended, and all the land redivided amongst those who work it, to banish famine and land hunger;
The state shall help the peasants with implements, seed, tractors and dams to save the soil and assist the tillers;
Freedom of movement shall be guaranteed to all who work on the land;
All shall have the right to occupy land wherever they choose;
People shall not be robbed of their cattle, and forced labour and farm prisons shall be abolished.
^Freedom charter

What the ANC ultimately stands for.
 

ForceFate

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#28
Will only help Malema, because then he would have a criminal record a requirement to become president here
Goes to show how brutal things were for the likes of Mandela.

Btw, I don't think Ramaphosa was imprisoned at any point.
 

ForceFate

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#30
Is EWC a radical leftist policy or not?

Whether the state takes land for itself or takes it for someone else is irrelevant, both trample all over private property rights and spit in the face of willing buyer-willing seller.

Look at 'Radical Economic Transformation' (CR still talks about this) where the ANC foresees government guiding the economy, increasing the role played by SOEs and expanding the public sector. A more nefarious implication of this is the forced compliance of the private sector. This is most certainly not associated with liberal policy.
RET has been JZ's election mantra from the beginning. ANC never formally adopted this. With regards to EWC, there's no clear policy either, which leads me to believe it will get quieter and focus shifted elsewhere.
 
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