Official Arsenal FC Supporters Thread II

[poffle]

hows this.

Defender Laurent Koscielny has added to Arsenal’s injury concerns after he was released from the France squad.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Madrid won 7 games by scoring 5 or more goals that season. When you're steam rolling teams you hardly exert yourself. Madrid plays Barca and Athletio twice in the league. High intensity matches. Maybe another Madrid derby I'm not aware off.

How many high intensity fixtures does Arsenal have. United, City, Chelsea, Spurs, Liverpool. How many walks in the park?

Again, this is not Özil's fault. You make it sound like he had it easy at Madrid, when the point is that it's the exact opposite.

When you are steamrolling teams, it indicates that you are at a pretty high level as a team, meaning that your performance levels need to be at their utmost to remain a fixture in the team. I certainly think that the better teams have higher median performance levels than the lower level teams, it's why they are better teams.

Also, Atletico Madrid are one of the most hardworking teams in La Liga, playing physical, aggressive football, but don't have close to the amount of regular injuries as Arsenal do, despite a similar squad size and regular cluster of players starting.

Some stats from the post world cup season.

Ozil under Mourinho at Real Madrid in the entire 2010/11 season completed 90 minues only 8 times. 12 times including Champions League games.

I can count on one hand how many times Wenger has substituted Ozil.

Wenger doesn't break them in training he breaks them on match day.

Agreed on him breaking them, but I think that training still remains a concern.

 

[Gnarls]

don't La Liga have a winter break?

 

[RexxGrim]

Agreed on him breaking them, but I think that training still remains a concern.

You're trying to pin this on training, which no one can really provide any sort of proof for. Even in that article you linked they don't discuss training methods as an possible cause in any kind of detail. They just mentioned it in the conclusion.

Other than a guess what can you offer as reasonable argument that training methods is the big culprit here instead of just the combined effect of a lot of factors?

 

[Maverick Jester]

You're trying to pin this on training, which no one can really provide any sort of proof for. Even in that article you linked they don't discuss training methods as an possible cause in any kind of detail. They just mentioned it in the conclusion.

Which is why I linked it in the first place. I said it's a factor, not the factor.

Other than a guess what can you offer as reasonable argument that training methods is the big culprit here instead of just the combined effect of a lot of factors?

Training methods being a big culprit does not mean that they do not factor into a combined effect of other issues. But consider this:

A lot of Arsenal's injuries are muscular (thigh, groin and hamstring). I don't need to be a physiotherapist (and neither do you) to understand that strengthening of the muscles in these areas through necessary training would cut down on those sorts of injuries.

Do you agree?

 

[The Voice]

don't La Liga have a winter break?

All European leagues have a winter break. From the stats I've seen, Mourihno NEVER played Özil past the 60min mark. He obviously realised what a fragile little flower he was.

The EPL is without a doubt the toughest league in the world physically (it even has its own rugby team, Stoke). Added to that the League Cup, FA Cup and Champions League fixtures, the Christmas schedule (37 matches over 6 days or something) and international matches (qualifiers and pointless friendlies) - suddenly you start seeing the importance of squad depth and rotation. The difference is in the quality of your team. Chelsea, or Madrid for that matter (as they've been used as an example a lot), could probably rotate 6-7 players (like for like - not throw on a RB and expect him to play AM) every other match and STILL put out a formidable side. We just can't do that!

Oh, and re: the Kos with tendinitis in BOTH achilles? Hahahahahahahaha!

 

[The Voice]

Dat guy Welbs scored again (Ox assist). Now if Roy could just sub all our players off, that'd be great.

 

[_kabal_]

At least Walcott and gnabry are back in full training

 

[The Voice]

At least Walcott and gnabry are back in full training

Yay! Some good news! We also have our new signing, Diaby

 

[diggitydaz]

I don't need to be a physiotherapist (and neither do you) to understand that strengthening of the muscles in these areas through necessary training would cut down on those sorts of injuries.

How do you know this isn't being done ?

You seem to have intimate knowledge of Arsenal's training methodology. Please share.

 

[RexxGrim]

Which is why I linked it in the first place. I said it's a factor, not the factor.

Training methods being a big culprit does not mean that they do not factor into a combined effect of other issues. But consider this:

A lot of Arsenal's injuries are muscular (thigh, groin and hamstring). I don't need to be a physiotherapist (and neither do you) to understand that strengthening of the muscles in these areas through necessary training would cut down on those sorts of injuries.

Do you agree?

Someone asked if there was any logical way to explain the injury phenomonan and your reply was simply "training methods". Basically what sparked our discussion.

Seems we agree that it's actually a range of factors of which training methods are just one. However I still maintain that training methods are just a small part of the problem.

Soft tissue/Muscles injuries are a not acceptable I agree. At this time it's only Ramsey that has a nuscle strain, though.

Ozil - Knee
Walcott - Knee
Debuchy - Ankle
Giroud - Ankle
Diaby - Various, but all because he had his ankle snapped.

 

[Maverick Jester]

Someone asked if there was any logical way to explain the injury phenomonan and your reply was simply "training methods". Basically what sparked our discussion.

Yep, but I agreed with you that it's a multitude of factors that are behind Arsenal's injury problems

Seems we agree that it's actually a range of factors of which training methods are just one. However I still maintain that training methods are just a small part of the problem.

Soft tissue/Muscles injuries are a not acceptable I agree. At this time it's only Ramsey that has a nuscle strain, though.

I suppose logically, it's the easiest to look at because fundamentally, you would hope that the employed training and conditioning programmes strengthen and protect those sorts of areas from getting injured in the first place.

You've mentioned before that an Arsenal player injured can usually add a few more weeks to the expected return date (tongue in cheek, I know). Do you think that perhaps the medical staff that ascertain and treat the injuries are not doing enough to prevent recurrences happening? I know that a lot of Arsenal's injured players also happen to have regular instances of injury (Arteta and Ramsey as examples), as opposed to a large number of them simply getting hurt, and in the case of Özil, his injury was only identified when he reported for national duty as opposed to earlier. I found that part rather odd.

 

[Maverick Jester]

How do you know this isn't being done ?

I don't, but given that so many injuries occur at Arsenal related to those areas, I have to ask if enough is done to combat it. Muscle injuries are the most preventable, because you can condition and strengthen those areas to deal with the different levels of torsion, flexion and extension forces through a thorough physiotherapy programme. I question Arsenal's methods because other teams do not have the frequency of those sorts of injuries (even Liverpool, who had those almost every week under Rafa).

You seem to have intimate knowledge of Arsenal's training methodology. Please share.

You know, it would be nice if you could actually contribute to a conversation, instead of throwing up strawmans and getting defensive of valid criticism.

 

[RexxGrim]

Yep, but I agreed with you that it's a multitude of factors that are behind Arsenal's injury problems

I suppose logically, it's the easiest to look at because fundamentally, you would hope that the employed training and conditioning programmes strengthen and protect those sorts of areas from getting injured in the first place.

You've mentioned before that an Arsenal player injured can usually add a few more weeks to the expected return date (tongue in cheek, I know). Do you think that perhaps the medical staff that ascertain and treat the injuries are not doing enough to prevent recurrences happening? I know that a lot of Arsenal's injured players also happen to have regular instances of injury (Arteta and Ramsey as examples), as opposed to a large number of them simply getting hurt, and in the case of Özil, his injury was only identified when he reported for national duty as opposed to earlier. I found that part rather odd.

I think Ozil thing is simply a case of where he showed up for training the first time after the Chelsea game. If it was a normal week then he would have noticed something is up while training with Arsenal.

Imo the lenght of the injury layoffs is not the problem as such, just over zealous PR trying to be over positive. When they say it'll be six weeks what does that even mean.

1) 6 weeks till he can walk again?
2) 6 weeks till he can run again?
3) 6 weeks till he can run out 45min for reserves?
4) 6 weeks till he can sit on the bench?
5) 6 weeks till he starts at full fitness?

I recon most of the time the club's 6 weeks is closer to 1, while the fans expections (myself here) is closer to 5.

Not so sure about Arteta, but Ramsey suffered a massive injury and even with intensive rehabilitation you don't comeback 100% from that. Just look at Eduardo wasn't half the player when he eventually cameback and Diaby, well do I need to say more.

Bottemline for me is that there is certainly a problem. You can't just put it down to bad luck.

The easiest fix for me is just to get a decent sized squad or the only other alternative is to get the guy that trained Van Dam in kickboxer and have the team kick palm trees with there ankles.

 

[The Voice]

I don't, but given that so many injuries occur at Arsenal related to those areas, I have to ask if enough is done to combat it. Muscle injuries are the most preventable, because you can condition and strengthen those areas to deal with the different levels of torsion, flexion and extension forces through a thorough physiotherapy programme. I question Arsenal's methods because other teams do not have the frequency of those sorts of injuries (even Liverpool, who had those almost every week under Rafa).



You know, it would be nice if you could actually contribute to a conversation, instead of throwing up strawmans and getting defensive of valid criticism.

That's exactly why we got Shad in. He's a specialist in that area. Of course, it's going to take a while for him to get our guys right. In the meantime, they'll just drop like flies. But clearly Arsenal were aware that there has been a huge problem at the club for a while, otherwise they wouldn't have brought him in. But again, it doesn't help us NOW as the work he does is preventative more than anything.

And I think we CAN point a finger at training methods. Players train, then play matches - there's really not much else footballers do that could get them injured. And if they're not injured via bad tackles, etc, it's muscle damage, something any sportsman will tell you is causes by overuse and inadequate rest (biology 101: muscle fibres tear during strenuous exercise, and rebuild them themselves when they're rested). And of course, the whole red-zone thing. I'm sure we thoroughly examine our players, but if they say "oh I'm not sore, I can play"...

 

[Maverick Jester]

The Voice, I was reading up on the Emirates stadium due to a discussion I had with someone else, and found this interesting stat:

The stadium topped out in August 2005 and external glazing, power and water tank installation was completed by December 2005. The first seat in the new stadium was ceremonially installed on 13 March 2006 by Arsenal midfielder Abou Diaby.

Remember what you said about the curse?

 

[The Voice]

The Voice, I was reading up on the Emirates stadium due to a discussion I had with someone else, and found this interesting stat:



Remember what you said about the curse?

/facepalm

Yup, there it is!

 

[The Voice]

DailyFail reporting that Bayern want Özil in January for £30mil. Lol

 

[The Voice]

Read an interesting article in arseblog. It attributes all our injuries to the type of turf we're using at the Emirates and our training ground. As we're previously the only club using that type of grass, it'd make sense then when players get injured so easily playing on other turfs. An interesting comparison was with Man Utd: they also have a large number of injuries this season. As it turns out, they're now the second team in the country to use this special type of grass this season.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

 

[RexxGrim]

Read an interesting article in arseblog. It attributes all our injuries to the type of turf we're using at the Emirates and our training ground. As we're previously the only club using that type of grass, it'd make sense then when players get injured so easily playing on other turfs. An interesting comparison was with Man Utd: they also have a large number of injuries this season. As it turns out, they're now the second team in the country to use this special type of grass this season.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

It does sound a bit tinfoil hat, but don't discount the power of conditining. If you train week in week out on which is basically a perfect carpet like pitch and then get exposed to lesser surfaces it could well be the cause of injuries. Your ankles are not used to the uneven surfaces.

Once again I think that it's not the sole problem, but just part of the list of many factors as we've discussed before.