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Official Liverpool FC Supporters Thread
- Thread starter Fern9do
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Really, I'm flaberghasted. Some people have no clue at all.
I have been a fan since the mid 1980's.. i have been through the few ups and lots of downs since then.. Benitez did well to win the champ league once, but has nothing else to show for all his time at liverpool..
He cant even claim to have produced world class players cause he bought one 1 and inherited another. He does not have the ability to make good players into world class, which has become a necessity world wide in the last decade or so, because of the inflated price tag on most players.
I feel he started to run out of ideas last season, and when he finally found a tactic that worked well at the end of last season, he shelves it for this season.. A manager should get 3 years to prove himself at a club, and if he has not produced anything significant since then, then i feel its time for a fresh approach..
Yes, Liverpool came second last season only losing 3 or so matches, but they simply could not finish off teams -> they could not finish off cause of his negative tactics when going 1-0 up..
I will always support liverpool through thick and thin, but the manager has brought a negative approach to the soccer played at by liverpool which i do not think is their style at all...
Where do I start? I'm off this week so I have time to dig up some stats.
Let's compare the two shall we:
Houllier in the League:
1998/1999 - 7th, 54 points, W 15, D 9, L 14, GS 68, GA 49, GD 19 [This is not taken into account as he was taking over a struggling team at the time]
1999/2000 - 4th, 67 points, W 19, D 10, L 9, GS 51, GA 30, GD 21
2000/2001 - 3rd, 69 points, W 20, D 9, L 9, GS 71, GA 39, GD 32
2001/2002 - 2nd, 80 points, W 26, D 8, L 6, GS 67, GA 30, GD 37
2002/2003 - 5th, 64 points, W 18, D 10, L 10, GS 61, GA 41, GD 20
2003/2004 - 4th, 60 points, W16, D 12, L 10, GS 55, GA 37, GD 18
Average - P 3.6, 68 points, W 20, D 10, L 9, GS 61, GA 35, GD, 26
Rafa in the League:
2004/2005 - 5th, 58 points, W 17, D 7, L 14, GS, 52, GA 41, GD 11
2005/2006 - 3rd, 82 points, W 25, D 7, L 6, GS 57, GA 25, GD 32
2006/2007 - 3rd, 68 points, W 20, D 8, L 10, GS 57, GA 27, GD 30
2007/2008 - 4th, 76 points, W 21, D 13, L 4, GS 67, GA 28, GD 39
2008/2009 - 2nd, 86 points, W 25, D 11, L 2, GS 77, GA 27, GD 50
Average - P 3.4, 74 points, W 22, D 9, L 7, GS 62, GA 30, GD 32
Summary:
Rafa is better on every score.
Rafa also finished higher than 80 points (Houliiers highest points tally) on two occasions.
It is also interesting to note that last season was the highest points tally since 1987/1988 season where they achieved 90 points with 40 games (there were 21 teams in the league that year)
I think the stats speak for themselves.
Lets look at Liverpool in Europe:
Houllier:
1998/1999 - Uefa Cup (Rd 2)
1999/2000 - Nothing [ these two years can't be included as it wasn't his fault]
2000/2001 - Uefa Cup (Won)
2001/2002 - Champions League (QF), Uefa Super Cup (Won)
2002/2003 - Champions League (Group), Uefa Cup (Rd 5)
2003/2004 - Uefa Cup (Rd 4)
Rafa:
2004/2005 - Champions League (Won)
2005/2006 - Champions League (Rd 2), Uefa Super Cup (Won), Fifa World Club Cup (Final)
2006/2007 - Champions League (Final)
2007/2008 - Champions League (Semi Final)
2008/2009 - Champions League (Q-Final)
Summary: Rafa has definitely achieved much more in Europe. He has won the Champions League which eluded us for 20 years and he brought us to another final in two years. He has maintained a respectable record in Europe.
Domestic Competitions:
Houllier:
1998/1999 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 4)
1999/2000 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 3)
2000/2001 - FA Cup (Won), League Cup (Won)
2001/2002 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 3)
2002/2003 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Won)
2003/2004 - FA Cup (Rd 5), League Cup (Rd 4)
Rafa:
2004/2005 - FA Cup (Rd 3), League Cup (Final)
2005/2006 - FA Cup (Won), League Cup (Rd 3)
2006/2007 - FA Cup (Rd 3), League Cup (QF)
2007/2008 - FA Cup (Rd 5), League Cup (QF)
2008/2009 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 4)
Summary: Houllier has the slight upper hand here but by only winning the League Cup twice which is hardly something special.
All in All, I prefer Rafa thank you very much.
Mascherano, Alonso, Reina, Agger are some that jump out at me.
Who else besides Hyypia has Houllier bought that has turned out to be world class?
Pity the Man United board didn't use your model when Ferguson started off in 1986. It took him 7 years to win the League.
They lost 2 last year, not 3.
In the 4 previous times that Liverpool has won the title:
1983/1984 - drew 14 times
1985/1986 - drew 10 times
1987/1988 - drew 12 times
1989/1990 - drew 10 times
Last season 2008/2009 - drew 11 times.
Now I wonder why people kept on nailing Rafa on trying to finish off teams when even the great Liverpool teams of old found themselves wanting as well when it came to draws.
Let's compare the two shall we:
Houllier in the League:
1998/1999 - 7th, 54 points, W 15, D 9, L 14, GS 68, GA 49, GD 19 [This is not taken into account as he was taking over a struggling team at the time]
1999/2000 - 4th, 67 points, W 19, D 10, L 9, GS 51, GA 30, GD 21
2000/2001 - 3rd, 69 points, W 20, D 9, L 9, GS 71, GA 39, GD 32
2001/2002 - 2nd, 80 points, W 26, D 8, L 6, GS 67, GA 30, GD 37
2002/2003 - 5th, 64 points, W 18, D 10, L 10, GS 61, GA 41, GD 20
2003/2004 - 4th, 60 points, W16, D 12, L 10, GS 55, GA 37, GD 18
Average - P 3.6, 68 points, W 20, D 10, L 9, GS 61, GA 35, GD, 26
Rafa in the League:
2004/2005 - 5th, 58 points, W 17, D 7, L 14, GS, 52, GA 41, GD 11
2005/2006 - 3rd, 82 points, W 25, D 7, L 6, GS 57, GA 25, GD 32
2006/2007 - 3rd, 68 points, W 20, D 8, L 10, GS 57, GA 27, GD 30
2007/2008 - 4th, 76 points, W 21, D 13, L 4, GS 67, GA 28, GD 39
2008/2009 - 2nd, 86 points, W 25, D 11, L 2, GS 77, GA 27, GD 50
Average - P 3.4, 74 points, W 22, D 9, L 7, GS 62, GA 30, GD 32
Summary:
Rafa is better on every score.
Rafa also finished higher than 80 points (Houliiers highest points tally) on two occasions.
It is also interesting to note that last season was the highest points tally since 1987/1988 season where they achieved 90 points with 40 games (there were 21 teams in the league that year)
I think the stats speak for themselves.
Lets look at Liverpool in Europe:
Houllier:
1998/1999 - Uefa Cup (Rd 2)
1999/2000 - Nothing [ these two years can't be included as it wasn't his fault]
2000/2001 - Uefa Cup (Won)
2001/2002 - Champions League (QF), Uefa Super Cup (Won)
2002/2003 - Champions League (Group), Uefa Cup (Rd 5)
2003/2004 - Uefa Cup (Rd 4)
Rafa:
2004/2005 - Champions League (Won)
2005/2006 - Champions League (Rd 2), Uefa Super Cup (Won), Fifa World Club Cup (Final)
2006/2007 - Champions League (Final)
2007/2008 - Champions League (Semi Final)
2008/2009 - Champions League (Q-Final)
Summary: Rafa has definitely achieved much more in Europe. He has won the Champions League which eluded us for 20 years and he brought us to another final in two years. He has maintained a respectable record in Europe.
Domestic Competitions:
Houllier:
1998/1999 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 4)
1999/2000 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 3)
2000/2001 - FA Cup (Won), League Cup (Won)
2001/2002 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 3)
2002/2003 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Won)
2003/2004 - FA Cup (Rd 5), League Cup (Rd 4)
Rafa:
2004/2005 - FA Cup (Rd 3), League Cup (Final)
2005/2006 - FA Cup (Won), League Cup (Rd 3)
2006/2007 - FA Cup (Rd 3), League Cup (QF)
2007/2008 - FA Cup (Rd 5), League Cup (QF)
2008/2009 - FA Cup (Rd 4), League Cup (Rd 4)
Summary: Houllier has the slight upper hand here but by only winning the League Cup twice which is hardly something special.
All in All, I prefer Rafa thank you very much.
Mascherano, Alonso, Reina, Agger are some that jump out at me.
Who else besides Hyypia has Houllier bought that has turned out to be world class?
Pity the Man United board didn't use your model when Ferguson started off in 1986.
It took him 7 years to win the League.They lost 2 last year, not 3.
In the 4 previous times that Liverpool has won the title:
1983/1984 - drew 14 times
1985/1986 - drew 10 times
1987/1988 - drew 12 times
1989/1990 - drew 10 times
Last season 2008/2009 - drew 11 times.
Now I wonder why people kept on nailing Rafa on trying to finish off teams when even the great Liverpool teams of old found themselves wanting as well when it came to draws.
You really know how to take the fun out of footy
What, having a factual argument about football on a football forum. Do me a favour.
esit: Anyway it was fun for me and it really refreshed my memory and gave me insight into Liverpool over the past 12 years and especially gave me some more detailed info on what Rafa has done to this club. He has really changed it for the better. Fair, he might be taking a lot of time but Rome wasn't built in a day.
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Whatever dude, it was a joke mmkay. Do I have to put a
smiley after every post to make my point? Anyway, I find it hilarious watching you stat-bash everyone.does he want to die?
AFAIK didn't he take a few years to win the league and that is what got him the time to build up United/steal the best kids from around the country?
Whatever dude, it was a joke mmkay. Do I have to put a
Of coarse, silly me, you're always joking around so I should of known.
I guess SAF took the last 10 years to get United to where it is... but he did win the League first tho... Guess it's just Rafa's priorities... he doesn't give a rats ass for the League but the CL.
Owen FTW!
You're just another that has fallen into the media trap. Don't believe everything they say.
I have been a fan since the mid 1980's.. i have been through the few ups and lots of downs since then.. Benitez did well to win the champ league once, but has nothing else to show for all his time at liverpool..
He cant even claim to have produced world class players cause he bought one 1 and inherited another. He does not have the ability to make good players into world class, which has become a necessity world wide in the last decade or so, because of the inflated price tag on most players.
I feel he started to run out of ideas last season, and when he finally found a tactic that worked well at the end of last season, he shelves it for this season.. A manager should get 3 years to prove himself at a club, and if he has not produced anything significant since then, then i feel its time for a fresh approach..
Yes, Liverpool came second last season only losing 3 or so matches, but they simply could not finish off teams -> they could not finish off cause of his negative tactics when going 1-0 up..
I will always support liverpool through thick and thin, but the manager has brought a negative approach to the soccer played at by liverpool which i do not think is their style at all...
A fan who has no idea how many games we lost last season???
Which obviously means that you watched only a few of our games last season... Yet you have an opinion on the manager playing negative football..
Are you mad? Which team has the highest goal tally so far this season? Which Striker is currently the leading goalscorer?
Which team has the most shots at goal and on target this season so far?
Look this up and see if you still think he is negative...
WUM.
Crouch
you know Pool brought up some good facts but 1 thing you have to remember is how times have changed in footy from 6 years ago let alone 12!
The Abromovic factor swayed things in a big way for the EPL. You cant compare old stats to current ones. Its all about now and what you do now. Rafa has the right philosiphy in taking each game as it comes, his rotation policy last season was a good thing in a way, it helped figured out the keyplayers for the team. Now his more consitant in his team selections but he does have his favourites, no one can deny that, we all know who they are and we know they hard workers, but whats the use working hard but not getting anywhere? Kuyt got 15 goals last season, and quite a few assists, fair enough but in those games that we drew I recall him being a major frustration at times, but Rafa would never sub him......
you know Pool brought up some good facts but 1 thing you have to remember is how times have changed in footy from 6 years ago let alone 12!
The Abromovic factor swayed things in a big way for the EPL. You cant compare old stats to current ones. Its all about now and what you do now. Rafa has the right philosiphy in taking each game as it comes, his rotation policy last season was a good thing in a way, it helped figured out the keyplayers for the team. Now his more consitant in his team selections but he does have his favourites, no one can deny that, we all know who they are and we know they hard workers, but whats the use working hard but not getting anywhere? Kuyt got 15 goals last season, and quite a few assists, fair enough but in those games that we drew I recall him being a major frustration at times, but Rafa would never sub him......
Took Slur Alex exactly 6 years before he won the league...
with all due respect... saying i want houllier back was just a tongue in cheek statement... I did not mean that houllier was better, but rafa is certainly not as great as u make him out to be..
Houllier had the team when soccer was still in the start of its financial boom... I would love to see the stats on the managers pre rafa and post rafa wrt money spent and received on transfers alone..
To say that Rafa has done a better job in the league is also not really as easy as you say it is.. I felt that when Houllier / souness was in charge, the league was a lot more balanced and it was more difficult to win outright.... Look at newcastle and blackburn for example..
Like someone also said.. rafa's priority was the champ league, and thats why his european record is a bit better than houllie's, but thats another issue..
This was not meant to be a Houllier vs Benitez debate, just a statement that Rafa has had his time to prove himself, which he has not in MY OPINION, and also in alot of others OPINION's..
As for the players you quoted.. Mascherano is very good, but Rafa did not make him good.. He came to west ham from south america being good already and has improved maybe 5-10% since his move to Liverpool. That being mainly because he is playing more regularly.. (dont come and say that because he was not a regular in west ham he was not good there.. that was a clash of personalities that kept him out..)
Alonso was also good when he arrived, as you would have seen if you watched him play in the La Liga every now and then. Reina is definitely not world class... If he was, he would make a hell of a lot less mistakes in goal and be giving Casillas a harder run for his money in the spanish #1 spot..
Agger is about the only player he has managed to find who has turned out good from a relatively obscure club. (Insua is also coming right, but he was also rated a promising youngster when he arrived..)
And as for remembering stats etc... just cause you remember who scored the goal in the 19XX league match vs Whoever, or how many matches you won/lost/drew does not prove you are any more of a supporter..
Houllier had the team when soccer was still in the start of its financial boom... I would love to see the stats on the managers pre rafa and post rafa wrt money spent and received on transfers alone..
To say that Rafa has done a better job in the league is also not really as easy as you say it is.. I felt that when Houllier / souness was in charge, the league was a lot more balanced and it was more difficult to win outright.... Look at newcastle and blackburn for example..
Like someone also said.. rafa's priority was the champ league, and thats why his european record is a bit better than houllie's, but thats another issue..
This was not meant to be a Houllier vs Benitez debate, just a statement that Rafa has had his time to prove himself, which he has not in MY OPINION, and also in alot of others OPINION's..
As for the players you quoted.. Mascherano is very good, but Rafa did not make him good.. He came to west ham from south america being good already and has improved maybe 5-10% since his move to Liverpool. That being mainly because he is playing more regularly.. (dont come and say that because he was not a regular in west ham he was not good there.. that was a clash of personalities that kept him out..)
Alonso was also good when he arrived, as you would have seen if you watched him play in the La Liga every now and then. Reina is definitely not world class... If he was, he would make a hell of a lot less mistakes in goal and be giving Casillas a harder run for his money in the spanish #1 spot..
Agger is about the only player he has managed to find who has turned out good from a relatively obscure club. (Insua is also coming right, but he was also rated a promising youngster when he arrived..)
And as for remembering stats etc... just cause you remember who scored the goal in the 19XX league match vs Whoever, or how many matches you won/lost/drew does not prove you are any more of a supporter..
I didn't remember them, I researched them. I also did not say that I'm more of a supporter than you.
ok pool.. i guess u have some kind of self confidence problem, cause you seem to take things very personally..
That comment of mine was not directed at you, but as a general statement. If anything, it was more directed at Demon7. I saw that you copied and pasted all the stats you gave, and saw that you said you have some time off to dig up stats, which i respect because it shows you have a leaning towards facts rather than random statements, such as the one below..
That comment of mine was not directed at you, but as a general statement. If anything, it was more directed at Demon7. I saw that you copied and pasted all the stats you gave, and saw that you said you have some time off to dig up stats, which i respect because it shows you have a leaning towards facts rather than random statements, such as the one below..
Nah I just watch/ed what RAFA did to Couch, Keane and Babel
He shows extreme favoritism to 3 players... Lucas!, Torres and Gerrard... yet I really wonder why Gerrard always gets the flak for under performing when the team plays crap... Not like Gerrard can always bail them out
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