Our out of control unemployment

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#1
It seems like there is a lot of pointing fingers going on around the country and all the talk about investors running away and their confidence, blaming ANC, crime, etc. I don’t know if any of these stuff will solve our current problems though.
As someone with no formal education in economics, I would be happy to learn a bit more regarding this

As it stands, our country is where it is because it is because of our open borders not to sound like trump but think about this

1 . Who are majority of domestic workers in SA suburbs? Foreigners
2 You walk around SA and get into a lot of restaurants , 7/10 you will be served by foreigners.

3 almost all “Spaza shops” in SA are now foreign owned

4. With Uber and taxify drivers it’s almost half half.

5. There are some building at very low prices and thus pricing is out of the market

6. Every 3rd barber shop is run by foreigners

7. Unions. No explanation needed here

How much can you reduce our enemployment if all these sectors were occupied exclusively by SAns?

If people in SA are the ones getting the money then that will mean they 99% of the time spend it in SA thus growing our markets.

One can say , but SAns are lazy and only good for social grants but I beg to differ. A lot of them are willing to work given an opportunity just like they did during apartheid.

One person can say these jobs aren’t that good but we are having a crisis and being picky is not an option now.

Am I missing something ?
 

jambai

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2007
Messages
770
#2
4 million Zimbabweans in sa and to think you could have solved a chunk of sa unemployment problem by not letting bob get away with land grabs ( the source of the collapse of zim ) .Then again of course sa gov seriously cant understand cause and affect .
 

lowriderza

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Joined
May 23, 2019
Messages
238
#3
I'd say you're missing a few things.

Firstly, people tend to blame the "other" when the economy is sluggish. It happens all the time, Nazi Germany being a great example. It is very rarely an accurate opinion.

Secondly, objectively one can make a very strong case that indeed politics is the main culprit. To grow an economy one needs a) Education b) Manufacturing and c) a real willingness by people to work hard. The first two has definitely been ruined by past and present politicians. The latter is slightly debatable.

Please note that I am not advocating the silliness that is open borders. And I do believe we should do more to keep our borders safe. I doubt it will happen though as it seems the African Union is pushing for most of Africa to be even more relaxed under the guise of doing business easier.
 

Milano

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Joined
Feb 7, 2004
Messages
11,370
#4
It seems like there is a lot of pointing fingers going on around the country and all the talk about investors running away and their confidence, blaming ANC, crime, etc. I don’t know if any of these stuff will solve our current problems though.
As someone with no formal education in economics, I would be happy to learn a bit more regarding this

As it stands, our country is where it is because it is because of our open borders not to sound like trump but think about this

1 . Who are majority of domestic workers in SA suburbs? Foreigners
2 You walk around SA and get into a lot of restaurants , 7/10 you will be served by foreigners.

3 almost all “Spaza shops” in SA are now foreign owned

4. With Uber and taxify drivers it’s almost half half.

5. There are some building at very low prices and thus pricing is out of the market

6. Every 3rd barber shop is run by foreigners

7. Unions. No explanation needed here

How much can you reduce our enemployment if all these sectors were occupied exclusively by SAns?

If people in SA are the ones getting the money then that will mean they 99% of the time spend it in SA thus growing our markets.

One can say , but SAns are lazy and only good for social grants but I beg to differ. A lot of them are willing to work given an opportunity just like they did during apartheid.

One person can say these jobs aren’t that good but we are having a crisis and being picky is not an option now.

Am I missing something ?
If your stats are truly accurate then they only prove that foreigners are much more willing to work, more ambitions and more committed. Is that the intention of your post?
 

maumau

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Aug 13, 2009
Messages
12,955
#5
If your stats are truly accurate then they only prove that foreigners are much more willing to work, more ambitions and more committed. Is that the intention of your post?
Thought he was saying without foreigners ZA wouldn't have unemployment.
 

Milano

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#7
Thought he was saying without foreigners ZA wouldn't have unemployment.
If between 2 million and 4 million foreigners can take anything between 50 to 70 percent of most listed jobs and opportunities then they must be extremely talented. Plus it cannot be as many as 2 to 4 million as most of them are supposed to be undocumented criminals, right?
 

maumau

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#8
If between 2 million and 4 million foreigners can take anything between 50 to 70 percent of most listed jobs and opportunities then they must be extremely talented. Plus it cannot be as many as 2 to 4 million as most of them are supposed to be undocumented criminals, right?
No idea. Just saying what I think OP is about.
 

Lupus

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Joined
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15,012
#9
Yeah no sorry. The government is to blame, they restricted everything and only cared for the few on the top.
Education is in the toilet, companies are severely restricted on who the can deal with and hire or fire thanks to the government.
 

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#10
If between 2 million and 4 million foreigners can take anything between 50 to 70 percent of most listed jobs and opportunities then they must be extremely talented. Plus it cannot be as many as 2 to 4 million as most of them are supposed to be undocumented criminals, right?
Maybe the message was lost somewhere. I don’t have a problem with SA bringing highly skilled foreigners. I just feel with our current economic climate , we must reserve the little jobs we have for South Africans.

Let’s say for argument sake I make 17 000 per month as a South African school teacher. I’m sure there is an equally qualified Zim teacher who is willing to work for R5000. Must we then say the SA teacher must reduce his demands to be competitive? If yes then where does it stop? I’m sure internationally there are people who might be willing to do the same job for a plate of food and roof over their head.

As for skill and talent , well let’s be honest here. Most of the above listed jobs don’t require special skill or talents.
 

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#12
If your stats are truly accurate then they only prove that foreigners are much more willing to work, more ambitions and more committed. Is that the intention of your post?
Or maybe it’s because they are more tolerant to exploitation. Ever thought of that?
 

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#13
I'd say you're missing a few things.

Firstly, people tend to blame the "other" when the economy is sluggish. It happens all the time, Nazi Germany being a great example. It is very rarely an accurate opinion.

Secondly, objectively one can make a very strong case that indeed politics is the main culprit. To grow an economy one needs a) Education b) Manufacturing and c) a real willingness by people to work hard. The first two has definitely been ruined by past and present politicians. The latter is slightly debatable.

Please note that I am not advocating the silliness that is open borders. And I do believe we should do more to keep our borders safe. I doubt it will happen though as it seems the African Union is pushing for most of Africa to be even more relaxed under the guise of doing business easier.
I agree on the 3 points. It remember that just because something is blamed doesn’t make it wrong. Closing your borders completely is not the solution. But opening them wide open is not.

Technically you can archive 100% unemployment or closer to that if you allow companies to cherry pick people all over the world to work for them.

For example, Chinese companies for construction and cleaning, Cuban doctors and teachers, Zimbabwen farm workers and waiters etc. somewhere somehow you have to find the balance and I feel like ours is completely off at the moment.
 

Milano

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#14
Or maybe it’s because they are more tolerant to exploitation. Ever thought of that?
Yes i considered that while replying. However the reverse of the exploitation side of the coin is the entitlement side of the coin. As our labour laws move ever closer toward those of developed countries, is anything less than that really exploitation?

And how badly would you need to be exploited to prefer unemployment? And why would only foreigners look upon exploitation favourably? The whole 'foreigners being open to exploration' thing is more likely in a country with an actual functioning justice system in which they fear deportation.

For example you state that 7 out of 10 waiters are foreigners. I think it unlikely that those 7 out of 10 waiters would be any more exploited than the 3 out of 10 who are SA citizens.
 

Milano

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#15
It seems like there is a lot of pointing fingers going on around the country and all the talk about investors running away and their confidence, blaming ANC, crime, etc.
Let us say hypothetically that foreigners are to blame. How do you separate that from 'blaming ANC'? Are you saying foreigners are to blame - but government is not to blame for the number of foreigners in SA?
 

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#16
Yes i considered that while replying. However the reverse of the exploitation side of the coin is the entitlement side of the coin. As our labour laws move ever closer toward those of developed countries, is anything less than that really exploitation?

And how badly would you need to be exploited to prefer unemployment? And why would only foreigners look upon exploitation favourably? The whole 'foreigners being open to exploration' thing is more likely in a country with an actual functioning justice system in which they fear deportation.

For example you state that 7 out of 10 waiters are foreigners. I think it unlikely that those 7 out of 10 waiters would be any more exploited than the 3 out of 10 who are SA citizens.
I get it. Number 7 I mentioned unions. They are the ones spreading nonsense to workers raising their entitlement and admittedly workers being stupid enough to fall for it.

I just feel like we aren’t being honest with ourselves if we convince ourselves that people who are willing to work for R1600 in EPWP programs and graduates working as tellers have entitlement issues. Yes we do have some of those but we also have a lot who are willing to go to work a lot.

The reason why I wanted to avoid ANC in this discussion is that there is no question about how bad they are. Anyone who says otherwise is less than honest with us, himself or just ignorant
 

Düber

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May 17, 2018
Messages
488
#17
A good few years back I was dumped in a financial hole by a business partner, sitting with no cash and money owing I had to make a plan.
I started selling compost on the side of the road.
Simple plan get a bakkie load of compost, put it in bags and flog it at ten bucks a bag. It was surprisingly successful. Selling grass and other stuff with me were a number of other guys, mostly foreigners but also quite a few South Africans.

The guys seeing my turnover of bags wanted in. The premise was simple, selling at R10, R5 for the bag and compost leaving R5 to be made, so the offer I made to them was R3 a bag up to a 100 and R4 (for the entire lot) if you sold more than a 100 for the day.

Now this is where it got interesting, bear in mind these guys are siting there all day already, doing nothing, unemployed.
The foreign guys all jumped at the offer and some made seriously good money.

But all the SA guys, every last one of them, after them coming to me to find out what the deal was, turned it down outright, saying there was not enough money for them in a bag.

So I personally think that it might be an attitudinal and lack of foresight problem here, something that the foreign guys don't have, coming from places where the government is not your dutch uncle.
 

Thor

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#18
Youth Day SA:
• Nearly 80% of 9- or 10-year-olds cannot read and understand sentences in any language.
• 61% of 11-year-olds cannot add or subtract whole numbers.
• Nearly 4 in 5 maths teachers cannot do the sums expected of their 12-year-old pupils.
 

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#19
A good few years back I was dumped in a financial hole by a business partner, sitting with no cash and money owing I had to make a plan.
I started selling compost on the side of the road.
Simple plan get a bakkie load of compost, put it in bags and flog it at ten bucks a bag. It was surprisingly successful. Selling grass and other stuff with me were a number of other guys, mostly foreigners but also quite a few South Africans.

The guys seeing my turnover of bags wanted in. The premise was simple, selling at R10, R5 for the bag and compost leaving R5 to be made, so the offer I made to them was R3 a bag up to a 100 and R4 (for the entire lot) if you sold more than a 100 for the day.

Now this is where it got interesting, bear in mind these guys are siting there all day already, doing nothing, unemployed.
The foreign guys all jumped at the offer and some made seriously good money.

But all the SA guys, every last one of them, after them coming to me to find out what the deal was, turned it down outright, saying there was not enough money for them in a bag.

So I personally think that it might be an attitudinal and lack of foresight problem here, something that the foreign guys don't have, coming from places where the government is not your dutch uncle.
That’s a horrible experience and I totally understand where you are coming from. But the truth is there are South Africans who are doing way more for way less. It’s the same response I get when I mention working as domestic workers to some people. Our economy doesn’t allow us to be that picky now.
 

winner

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Joined
Nov 16, 2012
Messages
430
#20
Youth Day SA:
• Nearly 80% of 9- or 10-year-olds cannot read and understand sentences in any language.
• 61% of 11-year-olds cannot add or subtract whole numbers.
• Nearly 4 in 5 maths teachers cannot do the sums expected of their 12-year-old pupils.
I left out this part not because it’s not that important but because it’s a broad topic. Our education system is rubbish and it will deteriorate unless something drastic happens. Most teachers have poor knowledge of the content they teach in school. Some of them can’t even relate it to the outside world. Imagine an agricultural science teacher failing to do small scale farming. I’ve seen it before
 
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