'People laughed as robbers died' Good?

Syndyre

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And if your Son/Daugher is in the kitchen making a sandwich at 3am, wakes you up by making a noise and in your daze of sleepyness - you start shooting at the silouette ...

Does this justify owning a gun? Things like this dont allways happen 'to other people' Cure the disease, dont treat the symptom
It does justify owning a gun because how often does this really happen? Obviously you have to be cautious, especially if you live with other people. Fact is crime is a major risk here and the government's not doing much so people have to protect themselves.
 

Syndyre

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People laugh as someone dies and some of you guys agree with that???

If I act in self-defense and happen to kill somebody, I don't think I'd be laughing.

If you laugh at the death of somebody (regardless of whether they're guilty of a crime or not), you are indeed a sick individual.
I wouldn't agree with them laughing necessarily but I can understand if not agree with it. What I do agree with is that its good these criminals are no longer in this world, the less there are the better for the rest of us.
 

NewsFlash

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There are many valid reasons for owning a gun, but there are many that show the opposite - more gun owners are killed or injured by their own firearms.

By Law you have to keep your gun in a safe - what point is that when you need it for protection!
Self protection is not classed as one of the valid reasons by the authorities, they notify you to seek alternate means.

Where is the references or facts that more people is killed by their own guns? More than what, where, Who?
Maybe you mean "more and more" which is logical and expected as more guns is in circulation.

You gun have to be kept in a safe or on the legal owner, (unloaded). Not lying around, under the pillow or in the kids room.

The only real protection in this country is owning a gun legally and have some training. Gun ownership should be entrenched in the constitution as an human right for self preservation!
 

RichardP

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Self protection is not classed as one of the valid reasons by the authorities, they notify you to seek alternate means.

Where is the references or facts that more people is killed by their own guns? More than what, where, Who?
Maybe you mean "more and more" which is logical and expected as more guns is in circulation.

You gun have to be kept in a safe or on the legal owner, (unloaded). Not lying around, under the pillow or in the kids room.

The only real protection in this country is owning a gun legally and have some training. Gun ownership should be entrenched in the constitution as an human right for self preservation!
http://goodsforguns.org/gunshome/index.html
http://www.guncite.com/kleckjama01.html
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/magazine/magazine_home_disarmament.html

They are not South African articles - but food for thought (as the government dont even know how many people are in SA )

I am against 'instant justice' but the legal system in SA is so screwed up, what other choice is there. Why dont the Whiteys stand together and fight the problem in unison - instead of everyone for their own gun and shoot it if it moves mentality.

Why not attack the Criminals in a pro-active way... The one thing the criminal is afraid of is being seen play on those fears. Put up a 'WARNING - HIDDEN CCTV Camera' sign ..
 
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Syndyre

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Why not attack the Criminals in a pro-active way... The one thing the criminal is afraid of is being seen play on those fears. Put up a 'WARNING - HIDDEN CCTV Camera' sign ..
Why would they be afraid of that if there's no chance of being arrested and convicted?
 

Syndyre

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Think this is quite appropriate, shows why people want guns etc.:

"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend... "
 

bwana

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There are many valid reasons for owning a gun, but there are many that show the opposite - more gun owners are killed or injured by their own firearms. Those are the people that are dangerous.
Do you have the SA stats to back that up? You realise that in SA you have to go through at least some training wrt proficiency before you can get licensed unlike the states where often the only restriction is a cooling off period.
Its 3 am, there are 4 armed people in your house taking your TV etc etc .. how will a gun help? There are 4 adrenaline charged and scared trigger happy theives against 1 cautious and nervous person who is afriad of doing the wrong thing.
How do you know they're going to be satisfied with your tv? You dont need a gun to steal a tv.
By Law you have to keep your gun in a safe - what point is that when you need it for protection!
In a safe or on your person.
Why not attack the Criminals in a pro-active way... The one thing the criminal is afraid of is being seen play on those fears. Put up a 'WARNING - HIDDEN CCTV Camera' sign ..
CCTV - Easily defeated by masking your face.
 
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BandwidthAddict

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Yes, it does happen. if you have been drinking all night, get home in the wee hours of the morning - and then your sleep is disturbed an hour later. you cannot possible tell me that the person has got full control over his facilties.
RichardP, easy solution, don't drink. I don't drink alcohol. Never saw the point in it. I don't have anything against ppl having a glass here and there but the whole "let's get drunk" culture is beyond stupid. If you can't have fun sober, don't drink, fix the problem :) (couldn't resist ;) )

I cant agree with Shooting someone and then laughing at them until they died... but I can understand the anguish and suffering those resturant patrons endured before the theives were taken out.
From the article:

In one of the latest such incidents, three members of an armed gang were killed when a local at a pub in the suburb of Emmarentia opened fire as they robbed and pistol-whipped customers earlier this month.

The locals raised their glasses as the robbers lay dying and then rang the police. As one of the drinkers told the Beeld newspaper: "They died slowly, we all stood and laughed."
These ppl went through a very stressful ordeal. I don't agree with trivializing death as that road leads to some very unpleasant places but in this case, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and say that their laughter may have been a form of stress relief. We would only know if we had been there to witness the exact circumstance. If they were still laughing the next day, then I would be worried.

Syndyre said:
"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend... "
100% agree.

Peace.
 

RichardP

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Do you have the SA stats to back that up? You realise that in SA you have to go through at least some training wrt proficiency before you can get licensed unlike the states where often the only restriction is a cooling off period.How do you know they're going to be satisfied with your tv? You dont need a gun to steal a tv. In a safe or on your person.CCTV - Easily defeated by masking your face.
LOL - dont you think it will be suspicous that a person wearing a mickey-mouse mask is walking down your street :D It not the ACTUAL act of recording people, its the psycological effect of 'thinking you are being watched' Why you think the Trucks with 'Caution - Snakes in transit' signs on them dont get hijacked?

R
 

RichardP

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RichardP, easy solution, don't drink. I don't drink alcohol. Never saw the point in it. I don't have anything against ppl having a glass here and there but the whole "let's get drunk" culture is beyond stupid. If you can't have fun sober, don't drink, fix the problem :) (couldn't resist ;) )

Peace.
Unfortunately Alcohol is a real problem. 'Just dont drink' is an easy solution - but its the real world out there. You cant suspend your life waiting for someone to attack you in your house.
 

Leitmotif

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Ooookay.

Responsible gun owners are not the problem... its the 'gung-ho wannabes'.[1] Why does a person want to own a gun? Protection? or 'To kill the ******* that pisses me off'. the latter is a bad reason.[2] Do you reload your own bullets and add 1 more grain for Fun?[3] change the bullet heads for armour/piercing bullets?[4]
1. Because you're worried about the 'fanatics' you'll support denying guns to everyone? Get over your fear.

2. You really think people are going through the trouble and expense of getting guns to kill people who 'piss them off' when it's so easy to get an illegal firearm?

3. Reloading and customising ammunition is something *sport* shooters do, not gung-ho fanatics.

4. You can buy armour piercing bullets off the shelf, which shows what you know. However, anyone serious about self-defense carries JHP rounds, which are much more useful. Armour-piercing rounds cause minimal tissue damage, and in a defense situation you want to cause enough damage with as few shots as possible to drop the guy.

There are many valid reasons for owning a gun, but there are many that show the opposite - more gun owners are killed or injured by their own firearms.
Untrue, and disproven a thousand times over. The anti-gun lobby managed to get this into pop culture and collective wisdom back in the eighties, and it's stuck ever since.

Its 3 am, there are 4 armed people in your house taking your TV etc etc .. how will a gun help? There are 4 adrenaline charged and scared trigger happy theives against 1 cautious and nervous person who is afriad of doing the wrong thing.
A gun helps because the 'adrenaline charged and scared trigger happy theives' aren't in this for gun battles... they're not going to take the chance of dying. Criminals run from gun users.

By Law you have to keep your gun in a safe - what point is that when you need it for protection!
It's a stupid law, designed around the 'wisdom' of the anti-gun groups... because of course if the gun is available you'll only get shot with it.

If you have kids in the house, make sure they don't have access to your firearm. It's a matter for good sense, not blanket legislation.

Yes, it does happen. if you have been drinking all night, get home in the wee hours of the morning - and then your sleep is disturbed an hour later. you cannot possible tell me that the person has got full control over his facilties.
You're not allowed to be in posession of a firearm while intoxicated anyway. Serious gun owners don't drink all night. It's a good way to get your gun confiscated and a serious jail sentence if you run into a roadblock. Also, if caught in this situation, you'll be judged unfit to own a firearm and be unable to own a gun for 5 years.

Its not the resonable guy that should be prevented from owning a gun... the fanatics are also getting guns.. thats what the law is trying to change, but using the wrong technique.
What 'fanatics'? Most people who want guns just want to protect themselves. However, because there is no definition of a 'fanatic', it's being used as an excuse for blanket refusals of licenses.

There was a case recently (within the last 2 years) where a father shot his daughter accidentally. He could not identify the silouette so he shot it. These kind of things are 100% avoidable.
And that was a stupid move, preventable by training, not by keeping others from having guns. Also, you're very vague, while there are any number of stories *this year* of burglars clearing out after a warning shot.

http://goodsforguns.org/gunshome/index.html
http://www.guncite.com/kleckjama01.html
http://www.learnenglish.org.uk/magazine/magazine_home_disarmament.html

They are not South African articles - but food for thought (as the government dont even know how many people are in SA )
Okay, firstly, Americans are the most careless people in the world with guns. Secondly, most of those points cite nothing other than Kellerman... a flawed study which has been shot down again and again by intellectuals and gun groups alike. Actually, it's remarkable how the two groups overlap. Regardless, go and look around on a couple of good gun sites for studies on why guns are good. Start with http://www.a-human-right.com/ and http://www.gunfacts.info/

Why dont the Whiteys stand together and fight the problem in unison - instead of everyone for their own gun and shoot it if it moves mentality.

Why not attack the Criminals in a pro-active way... The one thing the criminal is afraid of is being seen play on those fears. Put up a 'WARNING - HIDDEN CCTV Camera' sign ..
How do we fight the problem without weapons? Oh, and by the way, it's not only the 'whiteys' problem. Don't try and deflect the argument with a cliche... 'shoot if it moves' works for zombie movies, but gun owners understand the concept of consequences, especially considering how much support criminals get from our legislature.

Criminals don't give a damn about being seen. Criminals are afraid of being *hurt*.
 

Leitmotif

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Think this is quite appropriate, shows why people want guns etc.:

"I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.
I love only that which they defend... "
Seems strangely familiar... oh wait! :)

LOL - dont you think it will be suspicous that a person wearing a mickey-mouse mask is walking down your street :D It not the ACTUAL act of recording people, its the psycological effect of 'thinking you are being watched'.
Firstly, putting an entire street under CCTV surveillance is expensive. Secondly, it's only too easy to break cameras. Thirdly, it's also easy to wear a mask as a beanie and just pull it down. Fourthly, when the police don't bother to follow up on those images, and criminals get away with much worse, there's no reason for criminals to fear being seen - and they don't.

Unfortunately Alcohol is a real problem. 'Just dont drink' is an easy solution - but its the real world out there. You cant suspend your life waiting for someone to attack you in your house.
I don't drink. You need to drink in order to have a life? Well, that's your choice. Just don't assume that everyone, particularly people with a defensive mindset, have the same 'needs'. Alcohol slows your reaction time, alters your perception of the world around you, and destroys coordination. In short, it makes you a perfect target.
 

RichardP

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Ooookay.

1. Because you're worried about the 'fanatics' you'll support denying guns to everyone? Get over your fear.
You cant have 2 rules - One for Enthusiasts and one for Regular Joes.

2. You really think people are going through the trouble and expense of getting guns to kill people who 'piss them off' when it's so easy to get an illegal firearm?
I am not questioning about getting illegal firearms, The law abiding gun owner doesnt have the intent of killing anyone, just in fits of rage! .. how many people have pulled guns out when a taxi cuts you off?

3. Reloading and customising ammunition is something *sport* shooters do, not gung-ho fanatics.
Sport shooters I can agree with. but what about those militia wanna-be's that spend the weekend in the bush with camo-gear on and shoot objects all weekend? Yes, those people do exist.

4. You can buy armour piercing bullets off the shelf, which shows what you know. However, anyone serious about self-defense carries JHP rounds, which are much more useful. Armour-piercing rounds cause minimal tissue damage, and in a defense situation you want to cause enough damage with as few shots as possible to drop the guy.
You have to be joking!!! What place on this planet do armour piercing bullets have a benifit! Its amazing how you can justify their use. They are designed to go through amrour and kill. they have 1 function. KILL. You can sugar coat it and justify anything you want.
[/QUOTE]


Untrue, and disproven a thousand times over. The anti-gun lobby managed to get this into pop culture and collective wisdom back in the eighties, and it's stuck ever since.
I have to agree with you there :D

A gun helps because the 'adrenaline charged and scared trigger happy theives' aren't in this for gun battles... they're not going to take the chance of dying. Criminals run from gun users.
Everyone can choose to believe anything. but I dont believe that at all! But everyone is welcome to their own opinion.

It's a stupid law, designed around the 'wisdom' of the anti-gun groups... because of course if the gun is available you'll only get shot with it.
How would you feel if your neighbour, who tried to comit suicide twice, then went to an institution for being schitsophrenic and got released - now has a gun. You would like that I bet.
'Protection' is not a valid reason on your gun application, then what other reason is there? *Sport* ?

If you have kids in the house, make sure they don't have access to your firearm. It's a matter for good sense, not blanket legislation.
100%

You're not allowed to be in posession of a firearm while intoxicated anyway. Serious gun owners don't drink all night. It's a good way to get your gun confiscated and a serious jail sentence if you run into a roadblock. Also, if caught in this situation, you'll be judged unfit to own a firearm and be unable to own a gun for 5 years.
and the Tooth fairy visits all the kids of the world

What 'fanatics'? Most people who want guns just want to protect themselves. However, because there is no definition of a 'fanatic', it's being used as an excuse for blanket refusals of licenses.

And that was a stupid move, preventable by training, not by keeping others from having guns. Also, you're very vague, while there are any number of stories *this year* of burglars clearing out after a warning shot.
As said earlier - protection is not a valid reason on your application. but firing a warning shot... HAH! ... in SA its 'Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again'. the legal system is so ****ed up that the burglar can sue you.


Okay, firstly, Americans are the most careless people in the world with guns. Secondly, most of those points cite nothing other than Kellerman... a flawed study which has been shot down again and again by intellectuals and gun groups alike. Actually, it's remarkable how the two groups overlap. Regardless, go and look around on a couple of good gun sites for studies on why guns are good. Start with http://www.a-human-right.com/ and http://www.gunfacts.info/
Sorry.. I cant take those web sites seriously. Its the same as going to www.catholic.com and asking which is the best religion.


How do we fight the problem without weapons? Oh, and by the way, it's not only the 'whiteys' problem. Don't try and deflect the argument with a cliche... 'shoot if it moves' works for zombie movies, but gun owners understand the concept of consequences, especially considering how much support criminals get from our legislature.
Look at the 'whitey' and 'darkie' cultures. In a township, someone steals a TV, the whole community gangs together and lynches the b@stard... The whitey community does nothing! just 'get a bigger gun', get a bigger dog... get a bigger anything! totally REACTIVE.

Criminals don't give a damn about being seen. Criminals are afraid of being *hurt*.
Yes, 100% agreed... but how often is it 1 criminal... its Gangs and syndicates!
I also think that the criminal knows he wont get prosecuted due to the legal system.. so even if he gets caught, 24hrs later due to some error he is back on the street. Many gun owners DONT understand the consequences.. how many people get shot while 'cleaning' their gun ... DUH!
 
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Leitmotif

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You cant have 2 rules - One for Enthusiasts and one for Regular Joes.
You also shouldn't deny all on the basis of a few. The damage is irreparable.

I am not questioning about getting illegal firearms, The law abiding gun owner doesnt have the intent of killing anyone, just in fits of rage! .. how many people have pulled guns out when a taxi cuts you off?
None. Never seen it, never heard of it.

Sport shooters I can agree with. but what about those militia wanna-be's that spend the weekend in the bush with camo-gear on and shoot objects all weekend? Yes, those people do exist.
Not in SA. Apart from hunters and the disbanded Kommandos, that is. These are rural people who have a great and proven need to defend themselves. Show me a city-dweller who does this.

You have to be joking!!! What place on this planet do armour piercing bullets have a benifit! Its amazing how you can justify their use. They are designed to go through amrour and kill. they have 1 function. KILL. You can sugar coat it and justify anything you want.
Okay, you've just proven your complete ignorance. I said armour piercing bullets are useless. JHP means 'jacketed hollowpoint'. Unlike AP they don't overpenetrate, and they make huge wound channels. Very nice for self-defense.

Everyone can choose to believe anything. but I dont believe that at all! But everyone is welcome to their own opinion.
It's not an opinion, it's a fact.

How would you feel if your neighbour, who tried to comit suicide twice, then went to an institution for being schitsophrenic and got released - now has a gun. You would like that I bet.
He's not allowed, by law, to have a gun. The laws are fine in that regard, the SAP are just implementing them incorrectly. Don't try and make out that I want anyone who wants a gun to get one. The current provisions against people with a history of violence or mental abberrance are fine.

'Protection' is not a valid reason on your gun application, then what other reason is there? *Sport*?
Tell that to the CFR. Shooting sports in SA are dying because the government doesn't want people to have guns.

and the Tooth fairy visits all the kids of the world
Go introduce yourself at a gathering of *real* shooters. See how much respect you get for drinking yourself into a stupor.

As said earlier - protection is not a valid reason on your application. but firing a warning shot... HAH! ... in SA its 'Tresspassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again'. the legal system is so ****ed up that the burglar can sue you.
Exactly. So rather fire a warning shot and not leave yourself open to legal recourse. Incidentally, it seems you're applying cliches of american gun owners to south africans, and mixing it in with our situation... interesting tactic, but please get your facts straight.

Sorry.. I cant take those web sites seriously. Its the same as going to www.catholic.com and asking which is the best religion.
And yet we should take your *disproven* antigun sites seriously? If you don't consider the opposition's arguments worthy of consideration, you're guilty of gross ignorance.

Look at the 'whitey' and 'darkie' cultures. In a township, someone steals a TV, the whole community gangs together and lynches the b@stard... in the whitey community does nothing! just 'get a bigger gun', get a bigger dog. totally REACTIVE.
Because strangely enough those criminals don't live in the same communities as their victims, and it's not as easy to find them. Also, let's see what happens if a bunch of white guys trundle into a community and try and lynch a criminal. They'll be torn apart.

Many gun owners DONT understand the consequences.. how many people get shot while 'cleaning' their gun ... DUH!
Gee, read a study and find out. In america, a hugely populous place where just about anyone can have a gun and no training is required: a few, but less than the antigun fanatics would have you believe. In SA: very few indeed. Contrary to what 'accepted wisdom' tells you, gun owners aren't careless.

Any gun owner in SA today has gone through the training, done the tests, and knows the consequences full well. It's not easy to get a gun today.
 
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RichardP

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Gee, read a study and find out. In america, a hugely populous place where just about anyone can have a gun and no training is required: a few, but less than the antigun fanatics would have you believe. In SA: very few indeed. Contrary to what 'accepted wisdom' tells you, gun owners aren't careless.

Any gun owner in SA today has gone through the training, done the tests, and knows the consequences full well. It's not easy to get a gun today.
I do agree that guns have got a place... but they have a place in the TRAINED hands of people.
America have the laws which give every citizen the right to own a gun, but why is it not a safest country in the world? and SA has fewer guns and its got more killings per anum. some arguments just dont add up.
 

Leitmotif

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Only saw it in your sig after I posted that. :)
Either way, it's a good quote. Expresses my views well. I don't glorify guns. They're tools. I don't glorify the guys who go out and win medals or shoot animals in the bush. Their skills, however, may feed or protect another human being.

If used in the preservation of self or others, these tools and skills are worthy of respect.
 

Leitmotif

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I do agree that guns have got a place... but they have a place in the TRAINED hands of people.
America have the laws which give every citizen the right to own a gun, but why is it not a safest country in the world? and SA has fewer guns and its got more killings per anum. some arguments just dont add up.
Fine. The law requires that every gun owner in SA be trained and competent. So why is the government still refusing licenses?

Let me get this straight - you acknowledge that america has more guns in the hands of civilians and yet it has less murders than SA? Fantastic. They also have less assaults and rapes. And yet you claim guns in the hands of civilians are a bad thing? The states where concealed carry is allowed are by far the safest in america. Crime drops when people are allowed to have guns and carry them. Proven over and over again.

Disarmament doesn't prevent criminals people from getting guns. A criminal's defining characteristic is that they don't obey the law. Disarmament merely prevents the law-abiding from being able to defend themselves.

Indeed, some arguments don't add up. I'd almost consider that ironic, standing as it does at the end of that post...
 

RichardP

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They also have less assaults and rapes. And yet you claim guns in the hands of civilians are a bad thing? The states where concealed carry is allowed are by far the safest in america. Crime drops when people are allowed to have guns and carry them.
No, Crime drops where you have a sence of Pride in your country, patriotism and confidence in the Justice/Legal and social systems. A Civil society and one that is capable of reason. the problem in SA is that no-one actually cares anymore.
 
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