'People laughed as robbers died' Good?

Leitmotif

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No, Crime drops where you have a sence of Pride in your country, patriotism and confidence in the Justice/Legal and social systems. A Civil society and one that is capable of reason. the problem in SA is that no-one actually cares anymore.
I can quote you US government statistics on violent crime dropping in states where concealed carry was allowed...

For the rest I agree with you, and our views in that area aren't neccessarily incompatible. However, if the government allows people to defend themselves rather than trying to disarm it's citizens, people will feel a lot less like subjects and a lot more like freemen.

When our leaders show that they trust us we can show them how proud we are of our country. I love south africa and it's people. My government, though, doesn't seem to care about me.
 

jontyB

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No, Crime drops where you have a sence of Pride in your country, patriotism and confidence in the Justice/Legal and social systems. A Civil society and one that is capable of reason. the problem in SA is that no-one actually cares anymore.
Nonsense. 90% of all crime in this country is still stealing to live. Violent crime, on the other hand is being committed out of greed, and many of the people involved in Violent crime in this country are foreigners. Patriotism is rife in the black communities. It's the white communities who are unpatriotic and distanced in this country.
 

RichardP

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Nonsense. 90% of all crime in this country is still stealing to live. Violent crime, on the other hand is being committed out of greed, and many of the people involved in Violent crime in this country are foreigners. Patriotism is rife in the black communities. It's the white communities who are unpatriotic and distanced in this country.
yes JontyB .. if the Social system worked, then theft would be un-necessary. I would not assume that the syndicate leaders are foreign, but I do think the Fall-guys are foreign.
 

jontyB

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yes JontyB .. if the Social system worked, then theft would be un-necessary. I would not assume that the syndicate leaders are foreign, but I do think the Fall-guys are foreign.
So from patriotism to functional social system. whatever.
 

RichardP

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So from patriotism to functional social system. whatever.

No, Crime drops where you have a sence of Pride in your country, patriotism and confidence in the Justice/Legal and social systems. A Civil society and one that is capable of reason. the problem in SA is that no-one actually cares anymore.
Sorry JontyB .. I did say it in my original posting.
 

jontyB

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Sorry JontyB .. I did say it in my original posting.
Every country has social problems. This country has more than just social problems. In any case, sorry RichardP - I discounted Patriotism as a factor.
 

BandwidthAddict

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yes JontyB .. if the Social system worked, then theft would be un-necessary. I would not assume that the syndicate leaders are foreign, but I do think the Fall-guys are foreign.
I'm curious, how would you fix the social system so it would prevent the type of crime we are experiencing in SA? And while you're at it, how did the UK social system prevent 7/7 and the attempted plane hijackings and the IRA and those areas in London that are "unsafe" etc?

And another thing. please explain why, in the wonderful Social land of UK, gun ownership is on the increase? http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index....D=2&subID=1205

So far I have only seen you talk rhetoric, why don't you back it up with solutions. Gun ownership is being touted here as a solution to criminal force and is said to increase your chances of saving your life, and the lives of others. What is your solution. exactly?
 
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RichardP

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I'm curious, how would you fix the social system so it would prevent the type of crime we are experiencing in SA? And while you're at it, how did the UK social system prevent 7/7 and the attempted plane hijackings and the IRA and those areas in London that are "unsafe" etc?

And another thing. please explain why, in the wonderful Social land of UK, gun ownership is on the increase? I can't give you a link to the stories right now as in wonderful SA, my international cap has been exceeded so I can't go to the BBC.

So far I have only seen you talk rhetoric, why don't you back it up with solutions. Gun ownership is being touted here as a solution to criminal force and is said to increase your chances of saving your life, and the lives of others. What is your solution. exactly?
BandwidthAddict, did I mention wonderfull UK anywhere ?
Dont confuse 'Terrorrism' and 'Armed Robbery', you cont seem to differentiate the two apart. You seemed to be acting like a threatned hamster.. taking bites at anything in its path.

I am having a constructive debate on Gun ownership, not Terrorism. Gun ownership is NOT being touted as a solution, that is a misguided misconception by gun zelots.

If I knew the solution to the Crime problem, I would be the Minister of security, but until that happens, you go take the 'might is right' route - see if I really care what you do. But if you kill someone innocent from an 'accidental' or even deliberate shooting, I will be there laughing as Buba initiates a new b1atch.

I am sharing a point of view, if you cant handle it that your opinion is the only one on the planet - then please dont read on. Thank you.
 
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Leitmotif

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BandwidthAddict, did I mention wonderfull UK anywhere ?
Dont confuse 'Terrorrism' and 'Armed Robbery', you cont seem to differentiate the two apart. You seemed to be acting like a threatned hamster.. taking bites at anything in its path.

I am having a constructive debate on Gun ownership, not Terrorism.

If I knew the solution to the Crime problem, I would be the Minister of security, but until that happens, you go take the 'might is right' route - see if I really care what you do. But if you kill someone innocent from an 'accidental' or even deliberate shooting, I will be there laughing as Buba initiates a new b1atch.

I am sharing a point of view, if you cant handle it that your opinion is the only one on the planet - then please dont read on. Thank you.
He's not stating a personal opinion. He's asking for a solution. Responding with aggression only discredits you.

You didn't mention the UK, but you mentioned that safety was one of your concerns when you moved. Hence the assumption that you would have moved somewhere safer. Then again, that's pretty much anywhere. Personally if I wanted safety I'd go to Canada. :)

On the note of terrorism vs. armed robbery... he did mention 'unsafe' areas of certain UK cities, and London is not the only one. Knifings are pretty common in the UK. Also, domestic terrorism is a symptom of the same sort of social discontent that we see expressed as crime in SA. I'm discounting the incidents of the UK being targetted as the 52nd state here.

If might was right then the criminals would surely win. We're talking here of balancing the power that criminals have at their disposal. Also, if you don't have a solution, don't criticise one that has been proven to work.
 

BandwidthAddict

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#1. You did not answer the question .. nice sidestep. The question was about how this magical social system you alluded to, but have not described, will remove crime from SA.

#2. Please see correction below for this statement - Do some searching around this site and you will find links to stories where the criminals say they are not targeting blacks, only whites. That is political. The UK situation is political as well. Therefore, there is relevance. This is a comment that not all benefits of having a gun to protect yourself come from preventing thieves using force. I mention 7/7 as the perpetrators were British natives, not foreigners.

#3. You did not answer the problem of the unsafe areas in London. I mention the UK as that is your environment, I live in JHB, that is my reality. Why don't you go to London and have a nice walk around and let me know how the UK social system has eliminated crime.

#4. This debate is about gun ownership and not only about criminal theft. There are many crimes here that have nothing to do with theft. Rape comes to mind, as well as farm murders where nothing has been stolen.

Freedom of speech dictates that I allow you to say your say, doesn't mean I have to give you credence. For that, you must earn it with something of substance.
 
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RichardP

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#1. You did not answer the question .. nice sidestep. The question was about how this magical social system you alluded to, but have not described, will remove crime from SA.
Poor you... If you keep the people at or above the bread line, then they dont usually have the need to steal. Support the people and they will support the government. In the UK, you are forced to look for a job. If you want unemployment pay, you have to submit proof that you were looking. the government also assists you in looking for a job as there are free telephones to use at the Job centres for seeking. THAT is a social system.

#2. Do some searching around this site and you will find links to stories where the criminals say they are not targeting blacks, only whites. That is political. The UK situation is political as well. Therefore, there is relevance. This is a comment that not all benefits of having a gun to protect yourself come from preventing thieves using force.
In SA, its not black/White - its 'Have and Have Not' theives will target the softest. Why with only 10% of Total SA population is white, are they being targeted? The SA situation is not political - its greed


#3. You did not answer the problem of the unsafe areas in London. I mention the UK as that is your environment, I live in JHB, that is my reality. Why don't you go to London and have a nice walk around and let me know how the UK social system has eliminated crime.
Did I say the UK had eliminated crime? That is your assumption. Every place has unsafe areas. Just your chances of being killed for your shoelaces and socks are different. Look at a recent story here in the UK .. Serial killer in Ipswich - took the cops about 2 weeks to catch and arrest him.

Look in SA, freeking criminals WALKING out of C-MAX! with the aid of Wardens! .. thats not political either, its plain greed.

#4. This debate is about gun ownership and not only about criminal theft. There are many crimes here that have nothing to do with theft. Rape comes to mind, as well as farm murders where nothing has been stolen.
the topic is gun ownership, and the benifits/drawbacks of that... not Rape and others.

Freedom of speech dictates that I allow you to say your say, doesn't mean I have to give you credence. For that, you must earn it with something of substance.
Yes, but did you have to attack me as a person? was that really necessary?
 
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RichardP

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Ok, its over - Go get Gun, guns are good and wholesome... Pretty soon the Gene pool will be clean and Darwins theorys will be 100% proof.

The Bottom line is - Laughing at a dying person is a calice and heartless act. Who are you to judge that dying person? We are all sons and daughters.
 

Leitmotif

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Poor you... If you keep the people at or above the bread line, then they dont usually have the need to steal. Support the people and they will support the government. In the UK, you are forced to look for a job. If you want unemployment pay, you have to submit proof that you were looking. the government also assists you in looking for a job as there are free telephones to use at the Job centres for seeking. THAT is a social system.
Don't know if unemployed shack dwellers even draw unemployment, particularly the criminals. I agree that the government should support it's people before they expect support, though. Part of that is allowing people the right to defend themselves.

On a lighter note... free phones, in SA? With our telecoms costs? :D

In SA, its not black/White - its 'Have and Have Not' theives will target the softest. Why with only 10% of Total SA population is white, are they being targeted? The SA situation is not political - its greed
Sigh... I agree with you here. Black middle- and high- class citizens are victimised as well.

Did I say the UK had eliminated crime?
See my earlier post.

the topic is gun ownership, and the benifits/drawbacks of that... not Rape and others.
No, the debate is gun ownership as a defense against rape, robbery, and the rest of the gamut of human failings.

Yes, but did you have to attack me as a person? was that really necessary?
Well, considering you likened him to a threatened hamster, accused him of being unable to tolerate your point of view, and then started this post with 'poor you'... splinter, plank, eye?
 

BandwidthAddict

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Who are you to judge that dying person? We are all sons and daughters.
We are the ones who judge a person based on their actions. A person chooses their actions; and they better be prepared to accept the consequences thereof.

It's called personal responsibility .. I know that the leftist, multi-culturals are trying to erase that concept, but nature will not let you forget it.

I agree with you, this conversation is going nowhere; I've had my say.
 

Leitmotif

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Ok, its over - Go get Gun, guns are good and wholesome... Pretty soon the Gene pool will be clean and Darwins theorys will be 100% proof.
Guns are good. I'm glad you've converted. Spread the word, brotha! Let us together remove the criminal filth from our precious gene pool! ;)

Well, I suspect that's not really what you meant, but think about it. The debate shouldn't end just because we stop posting.

The Bottom line is - Laughing at a dying person is a calice and heartless act. Who are you to judge that dying person? We are all sons and daughters.
Don't you mean who are the people who were attacked, threatened and rendered powerless by these same people, to judge them? Taking joy in ending life is obscene, but I can understand it... particularly after the relief of being saved. Stand up from a bad motorcycle accident, and you'll be amazed at the joy you feel simply to be alive.
 

BandwidthAddict

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I switched to my other account and have international access again. I have tried to find the links for the stories and realised that I have made a mistake:

#2. Do some searching around this site and you will find links to stories where the criminals say they are not targeting blacks, only whites.
I was mistaken, I thought I read it on MyAdsl but found the source of that story on a dubious site referencing Beeld. It probably is a bunk story so please ignore that part of the comment. Once again, since the underlying concept was that a fantastic social system will remove the causes of the need for protecting yourself from force (the reason for having a gun), then the rest of the comment stands. Violent crime in the UK is on the increase, regardless of the social system: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6149532.stm

Now that I have corrected the record, I have had my say :)
 
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Leitmotif

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http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=2&subID=1205

That's the UK article... there was a BBC article as well, but I preferred this one, since it shows some of the fantastic claims made against guns. Refers to a .22 pistol as an assassin's weapon, for example, while admitting that they're bought in France where they're not subject to licensing, and used for killing small vermin...
 

BandwidthAddict

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http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/index.php?menuID=2&subID=1205

That's the UK article... there was a BBC article as well, but I preferred this one, since it shows some of the fantastic claims made against guns. Refers to a .22 pistol as an assassin's weapon, for example, while admitting that they're bought in France where they're not subject to licensing, and used for killing small vermin...
Thanks. That's exactly the article I was referring to. My statement is reinstated.
 

RichardP

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Guns are good. I'm glad you've converted. Spread the word, brotha! Let us together remove the criminal filth from our precious gene pool! ;)

Well, I suspect that's not really what you meant, but think about it. The debate shouldn't end just because we stop posting.


Don't you mean who are the people who were attacked, threatened and rendered powerless by these same people, to judge them? Taking joy in ending life is obscene, but I can understand it... particularly after the relief of being saved. Stand up from a bad motorcycle accident, and you'll be amazed at the joy you feel simply to be alive.
I would have 'cheered' at the people that saved by life, not laughed at the attackers. Laughter would not been in the picture... more along the lines of Disgust and hatred.
 
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