Pick n Pay expands Bitcoin payment trial ahead of full country-wide launch

Jan said:
DISCLAIMER: This response ended up all over the place. Hopefully I made some coherent points.

It moves the cost of the transaction from the merchant to the customer. And rather than smacking the merchant 1%–5% of the transaction value, it's a flat 70c.

Not everyone can have a credit card. And many struggle to even get a debit card.

That said, I do agree that transaction speeds are still too slow. Right now Bitcoin does enough to disrupt SWIFT, but not so much Visa. At least for now.

I know it's basically propaganda, and I am a self-avowed HODLer, but this minidoc from Ledger gave me an appreciation for what the Bitcoin Ekasi guys were doing in Mossel Bay.

When the kid talks about having access to a savings product for the first time... That's something we just take for granted, but for them its potentially life-changing.

Click to expand...
There are some misconceptions here. That 70c is a network fee and could be 0, it depends on how your wallet is connected to the network.

And it is not slow, it takes a couple of seconds. It is faster than credit card payments most of the time.
 
Jan said:
That said, I do agree that transaction speeds are still too slow. Right now Bitcoin does enough to disrupt SWIFT, but not so much Visa. At least for now.
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Weird they didn't pick something with faster times unless they're just going for the thing most people know about. Why not create a PNP coin on some chain and start something interesting?
 
saor said:
Weird they didn't pick something with faster times unless they're just going for the thing most people know about. Why not create a PNP coin on some chain and start something interesting?
Click to expand...
Because speculation ruins utility.
 
saor said:
Weird they didn't pick something with faster times unless they're just going for the thing most people know about. Why not create a PNP coin on some chain and start something interesting?
Click to expand...

They are using the Lightning Network, and it does scale. It has its issues and concerns, but it is among the technologies validating BTC's use in the marketplace. I wouldn’t implement my own coin as an exchange medium at this time; the risk and security are too great. Not to ignore that most tokens aren’t really backed and that the returns are, uhm, yeah.

I would personally go with Binance Pay, but Binance needs to make inroads with our regulations.
 
saor said:
Why not create a PNP coin
Click to expand...
Who is going to take the effort of buying yet another speculative shitcoin, installing whatever software is needed to wallet it, signing up with whatever exchange or service to buy it, just to spend it at PNP? My goodness.
 
grca said:
Who is going to take the effort of buying yet another speculative shitcoin, installing whatever software is needed to wallet it, signing up with whatever exchange or service to buy it, just to spend it at PNP? My goodness.
Click to expand...
They could sell it directly in their app so that from a users perspective it's almost no different to a gift voucher - you're just topping up your account with PNP.
 
Jan said:
When the kid talks about having access to a savings product for the first time... That's something we just take for granted, but for them its potentially life-changing.
Click to expand...
True, but this is very dangerous - when (not if, we should have learned by now!) we have another bitcoin crash, that entire micro-economy will crash, and those guys will be very badly off as they need to get goods and services from the outside non-bitcoin world. Seeing it as an investment product isn't a good thing, it's really a speculative product, and being high-risk is suited more for those that have a lot more to invest. I don't know what the solution is for the low income people for savings, but I would never advise this!

I feel a stablecoin is what's needed, or someting like M-Pesa would suit this environment more.

It moves the cost of the transaction from the merchant to the customer. And rather than smacking the merchant 1%–5% of the transaction value, it's a flat 70c.
Click to expand...
Transaction fee is <2.75%, but still the point is that it's 0% for consumers, and now it's 70c... for the people who can least afford it. And I'm having a small problem connecting the dots that these people who admit it's too dangerous to carry any cash on them, it's fine to walk around with a smartphone.

I 100% salute the initiative, but I still think that bitcoin's a solution that's been forced in here, and not the optimum solution.

Every now and then I see if I should dip my toes in to Bitcoin as an investment, but with financial instruments like autocalls running at 15-20+% annually at a very low risk profile, it's just not very appealing.
 
elvis_presley said:
True, but this is very dangerous - when (not if, we should have learned by now!) we have another bitcoin crash, that entire micro-economy will crash, and those guys will be very badly off as they need to get goods and services from the outside non-bitcoin world. Seeing it as an investment product isn't a good thing, it's really a speculative product, and being high-risk is suited more for those that have a lot more to invest. I don't know what the solution is for the low income people for savings, but I would never advise this!

I feel a stablecoin is what's needed, or someting like M-Pesa would suit this environment more.


Transaction fee is <2.75%, but still the point is that it's 0% for consumers, and now it's 70c... for the people who can least afford it. And I'm having a small problem connecting the dots that these people who admit it's too dangerous to carry any cash on them, it's fine to walk around with a smartphone.

I 100% salute the initiative, but I still think that bitcoin's a solution that's been forced in here, and not the optimum solution.

Every now and then I see if I should dip my toes in to Bitcoin as an investment, but with financial instruments like autocalls running at 15-20+% annually at a very low risk profile, it's just not very appealing.
Click to expand...
I can guarentee you that the ppl paying with BTC dont care about a few cent transaction fee.

If it bothers you this service is not for you.
 
saor said:
They could sell it directly in their app so that from a users perspective it's almost no different to a gift voucher - you're just topping up your account with PNP.
Click to expand...
Sounds more limiting and doomed than the ill-fated eBucks.
 
saor said:
Weird they didn't pick something with faster times unless they're just going for the thing most people know about. Why not create a PNP coin on some chain and start something interesting?
Click to expand...
It's the lightning network. It is extremely fast. It does not work like on-chain BTC transactions where you have to wait long periods for confirmations. There is no utility in a PNP coin that would be any different from vouchers.
 
elvis_presley said:
True, but this is very dangerous - when (not if, we should have learned by now!) we have another bitcoin crash, that entire micro-economy will crash, and those guys will be very badly off as they need to get goods and services from the outside non-bitcoin world. Seeing it as an investment product isn't a good thing, it's really a speculative product, and being high-risk is suited more for those that have a lot more to invest. I don't know what the solution is for the low income people for savings, but I would never advise this!

I feel a stablecoin is what's needed, or someting like M-Pesa would suit this environment more.


Transaction fee is <2.75%, but still the point is that it's 0% for consumers, and now it's 70c... for the people who can least afford it. And I'm having a small problem connecting the dots that these people who admit it's too dangerous to carry any cash on them, it's fine to walk around with a smartphone.

I 100% salute the initiative, but I still think that bitcoin's a solution that's been forced in here, and not the optimum solution.

Every now and then I see if I should dip my toes in to Bitcoin as an investment, but with financial instruments like autocalls running at 15-20+% annually at a very low risk profile, it's just not very appealing.
Click to expand...
The transaction fee is not a flat 70c rate. It depends on your wallet's connection to the Lightning Network. It could be 0.
 
Will this work if paying from a LUNO account? What are the mechanics here?
 
The Darkness said:
Will this work if paying from a LUNO account? What are the mechanics here?
Click to expand...

Download BlueWallet app on your phone and create a Lightning wallet. Tap "Manage Funds" and "Refill with External Wallet", then send BTC to that address from Luno. That is an on-chain transaction, so it will take around 30 minutes to reflect on BlueWallet.

Then download the CryptoQR app on your phone and link it to BlueWallet. Then you're all set. At a supported Pick n Pay simply ask to pay with QR code and scan it with the CryptoQR app. It'll open BlueWallet, where you authorise the payment. Once done the teller will give you the slip same as if you paid with a credit card.
 
Snyper564 said:
I can guarentee you that the ppl paying with BTC dont care about a few cent transaction fee.

If it bothers you this service is not for you.
Click to expand...

Doesn't bother me, as it's a service I wouldn't use, because it has no advantages over what I currently use for the same purpose. But the fact is it's demonstrably worse for the consumer.
 
Window dressing. PnP get Rands. Apps get fees and bid/ask spread. Customer goes through the hoops. Everyone leaves the transaction with an over-inflated radiance of being tech-savvy.
 
kota said:
I probably should have phrased it better, I was thinking of CBDC (central bank digital currency) / "crypto fiat" when I was talking about digital currencies. Yes I do realize most of our money in circulation is digitize, and CBDC will just be an evolution / improvement upon that.

Yup, ZAR lost around 29% of its value if we measure from its peaks earlier this year mainly due to strengthening of USD, in comparison, btc lost around 60% from its peaks this year. The difference however is the volatility differences between the two, a large swing day in ZAR/USD is about the 3-4%, while in BTC/USD, the swings can be +10% and occurs pretty frequently and a 5% swing intraday is pretty average.

Another difference is that since we uses ZAR in our day to day payment, you are not really worried about exchange rate when you pay for something locally, but this changes when you use BTC to pay for things locally, suddenly, you need to think about the exchange rate. Price stability is probably the thing that is the most important when it comes to using a currency day to day and I am failing to see how BTC can be justified to have an edge against ZAR in day to day use?

Why use BTC for groceries when you have to worry about its exchange rates at the till when you can just use a debit card denominated in ZAR?
Click to expand...

Do you really want a CBDC:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1587099921773125635

I personally prefer BTC, an open, immutable, permissionless, money with fixed supply that cannot be altered by any central authority.
 
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