PICS: Armed robbers hit Hillsong church in Cape Town

Eniigma

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Ah I forget. Damn you are right this thread is a bit derailed.

Criminals are opportunists and the fact that the odds of someone on the church carrying something that will aid to self defence, or offence, is slim. Low-risk, high reward opportunity.

I hear that often that people will say to others "Yes this and that probably happened because God is testing you or is trying to tell you something". Hence asking what message God was trying to send by having people robbed at a place of worship. Perhaps that is a trolling question but no less valid in the context of what many religious folk say, though.
You can thank the Gov for that. Churches are gov mandated gun free zones. So yeah, the chance of someone there being armed to defend themselves. At the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, it shows just how well those gunfree zones work. Crims don't care about the laws so the sign means jack-shyte. The law abiding people do, so they don't carry and get to be nice soft easy targets.

Edit. my info was incorrect, so I retract this even though I still believe the essence of it.
 
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Nerfherder

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Now to get an abortion debate somehow kicked off - we can get some sort of hat trick ?
 

Matt_D

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You can thank the Gov for that. Churches are gov mandated gun free zones. So yeah, the chance of someone there being armed to defend themselves. At the risk of opening a whole other can of worms, it shows just how well those gunfree zones work. Crims don't care about the laws so the sign means jack-shyte. The law abiding people do, so they don't carry and get to be nice soft easy targets.
Its not a firearm free zone, they have right of admission reserved signs so just carry on. I work inside canal walk and walk past there 'no firearms allowed' signs every morning with my firearm.

Funny thing is they wouldn't allow an armed response guard into the church when he was responding to an alarm because he was carry a firearm
 

Eniigma

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Its not a firearm free zone, they have right of admission reserved signs so just carry on. I work inside canal walk and walk past there 'no firearms allowed' signs every morning with my firearm.

Funny thing is they wouldn't allow an armed response guard into the church when he was responding to an alarm because he was carry a firearm
Hmm, I was certain they were gazzetted ffz, but seems you are correct. Though I'm still sure I read they where somewhere.

Prohibited places (Gun Free Zones)
In South Africa, private guns are prohibited by law as per the Control of Access to Public Premises and Vehicles Act of 1985 (CAPPVA), in government buildings.[6] The Firearms Control Act of 2000 does allow for firearm-free zones, but this must not be confused with the mandate of the CAPPVA of 1985, which has effectively made all government buildings and vehicles firearm-free by law without the input of the FCA which came about almost two decades later. According to the FCA under section 140, firearm-free zones can be applied for and must be granted FFZ status by the minister. To date, there have been no firearm-free zone declared by the minister.[7]
 

cfilorux

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I, for one, am more curious as to what message God was sending by bring this event on the path of these worshippers.
They're going to lose everything. Hillsong is not really a proper church - few of the people there are saved anyhow (if any). They're all trusting in their works to pull them through.
 

Azg

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They're going to lose everything. Hillsong is not really a proper church - few of the people there are saved anyhow (if any). They're all trusting in their works to pull them through.
Does this apply to the Century City Hillsong only or all of them?
 

daveza

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Not really a proper church, not really a church, not a proper church - can you clarify what a 'proper church' is ?
 

EADC

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They're going to lose everything. Hillsong is not really a proper church - few of the people there are saved anyhow (if any). They're all trusting in their works to pull them through.
Do they not pay God enough Is that why it's not a proper church?
 

Craig

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Not really a proper church, not really a church, not a proper church - can you clarify what a 'proper church' is ?
I also wonder what that is supposed to mean. And percentage wise there are probably more saved people in Hillsong than in the main stream churches.
 

daveza

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I agree it's 'not a proper church', it's a business.

But I'm curious as to why he thinks it isn't and as to what IS a proper church.
 

cfilorux

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But I'm curious as to why he thinks it isn't and as to what IS a proper church.
A proper church has people who have faith in Jesus Christ: they are saved, and maybe even learning. Improper churches have faith in all manner of other things, like ecstatic experience, well-time "repentance", works of charity, seat warming, accommodating and entertaining non-believers. Hillsong, specifically, is not a proper church because they teach "We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives." - that's salvation by doing works of repentance and obedience (with faith on the side), which is another gospel, and no good news at all. They believe completely the wrong thing, so they do the wrong thing. What happens to a church like this? This: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 

ForceFate

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If want to take personal responsibility for the likes of Pastor Mboro then that is between you the Pastor.

What I am saying is that the "Good" churches are not doing much to liberate or shut down the "Bad" churches, other than condoning the practices. That said, perhaps the "Bad" churches are not doing anything wrong as they are, at least from where I am sitting, sticking to the same basics as the "Good" churches are, albeit with some...extravagance.
And THAT said, Jesus told Christians not do judge others in Matt. 7. Or perhaps it was a recommendation, or a guideline.
You want to pitch churches against each other? Where have I seen this?
 

Craig

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A proper church has people who have faith in Jesus Christ: they are saved, and maybe even learning. Improper churches have faith in all manner of other things, like ecstatic experience, well-time "repentance", works of charity, seat warming, accommodating and entertaining non-believers. Hillsong, specifically, is not a proper church because they teach "We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives." - that's salvation by doing works of repentance and obedience (with faith on the side), which is another gospel, and no good news at all. They believe completely the wrong thing, so they do the wrong thing. What happens to a church like this? This: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
That is but one point of many in their vision. Faith is not something they preach "on the side", faith is central in Hillsong.
https://hillsong.com/what-we-believe/
 

LCBXX

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You want to pitch churches against each other? Where have I seen this?
No. I am saying that the whole church/religious collective or movement needs to self regulate. I put good and bad in quotes on purpose as it would be up to the churches to decide which is which.
 

cfilorux

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That is but one point of many in their vision. Faith is not something they preach "on the side", faith is central in Hillsong.
https://hillsong.com/what-we-believe/
Their faith is that they repent of their sins. Their faith is in themselves: they stumble before they even get started. If you get the first thing wrong, then everything you do after that is going to be wrong as well.
 

RedViking

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Any new update on the incident since the last time it was under investigation?
 

OCP

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Any new update on the incident since the last time it was under investigation?
Nothing but a dusty file under a large pile of lots and lots more dusty files on a desk that is unoccupied.....
 

Craig

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Their faith is that they repent of their sins. Their faith is in themselves: they stumble before they even get started. If you get the first thing wrong, then everything you do after that is going to be wrong as well.
You are wrong, but keep on believing you are right.
 

C4Cat

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A proper church has people who have faith in Jesus Christ: they are saved, and maybe even learning. Improper churches have faith in all manner of other things, like ecstatic experience, well-time "repentance", works of charity, seat warming, accommodating and entertaining non-believers. Hillsong, specifically, is not a proper church because they teach "We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the ‘new birth’ we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives." - that's salvation by doing works of repentance and obedience (with faith on the side), which is another gospel, and no good news at all. They believe completely the wrong thing, so they do the wrong thing. What happens to a church like this? This: Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
:unsure: you're deluded.
 

RedViking

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Why don't you guys take the debate to the philosophical section as it has nothing to do with your twisted views on why the church deserved to be robbed and be a victim of crime.
 
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