PLEASE EXPLAIN?

3G4me said:
If Zuma was innocent and had nothing to hide there would have no need to fire Vusi Pikoli, and interfere with our independant NPA, would there? I'm not disputing that there was political interference from Mbeki's side, but if Zuma was innocent he would have nothing to hide?

He was guilty of fraud and corruption, bottom line. So was Shaik Shabir. Both are now free, thanks to the ANC's interference. That sucks big time in a so called democracy, and doesn't bode well for the future...:(
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I agree... only if he got acquited of all charges... only then will he be respected and admired by all

He is a criminal in my eyes... and never a president
No innocence till proven guilty... cause he is the one that dodged the courts... sorry not a criminal... he is scum :rolleyes:
 
There is one good answer to this: We are a one party state and we'll keep being a one party state until there is a civil uprising or until a lot of people start dying - just like Zim.

And no, a one party state is not a good thing. Just look at all the great democracies - the ruling party changes every few years.

A question to all the ANC supporters: Do you like the dictatorship system?
 
samuelp said:
You cannot compare Zim to SA. In fact, let's see what Zuma will do next months.
Also, DA is under pressure in Western Cape, they should prove they are able to govern a province
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I stand corrected here, but I am pretty sure there is less work being the Premier of The Western Cape than the Executive Mayor of Cape Town.
Helen will do famously.
I just hope she doesn't leave a void at the City of Cape Town?
 
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Nika said:
Why is south africas election, which was described by international observers as free and fair(like the previous 3), seen by some as the collapse of south africa into just another african country? Surely this is the exact opposite of what happens in most african countries?(ask zim)
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because all the same signs are there as it happened in other african countries which were given independence. They slowly became one party states. The ruling party slowly changed things to favour themselves and to make it less likely that anyone else could ever win. Massive graft and corruption in the ruling party was ignored or forgiven. The masses kept voting for the ruling party despite the behaviour of the ruling party. This is where we are now. Next the freedoms of democracy will start falling one piece at a time, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of movement, right of ownership, etc. It doesn't happen overnight, but basically it is one long slow rape of the country until it is just a shell of its former self. Go read up on the History of Zimbabwe, Zambia, etc.
 
I wonder of this is not Culture interacting with modern Politics Garyvdh? These things are going to take time to change or meld into place.

Much like England and other European Countries that were ruled by a King or Queen for yarns, it took major changes and political upheaval to change the status quo. Here in South Africa and other parts of Africa political leaders and/or heroes are put on pedestals as if they were Godlike. Only a change of perception and cultural beliefs will ever alter this perception in my opinion.

When Oliver Cromwell had King Charles I beheaded he apparently showed the gawking public his blood and people were struck by how human this supposed Divinely appointed King actually was as members of the crowd dipped their handkerchiefs in his blood to see for themselves after the beheading.
It is this moment in history that I equate with Africa today and it's people in the Renaissance of their Culture. If that beheading was the year 1649, only a decade or more before Van Riebeeck landed at the Cape, it just goes to show how far we have still to go down the road of politics. I think this road will be accelerated as modern technology allows, but a road it still is with the usual bumps and potholes along the way.
 
Proportional representation is used quite widely, in various forms. As with other democratic voting systems it has its pros and cons.

Where would the other parties stand if we instead voted for candidates in a winner takes all system?

However why is floor crossing allowed in South Africa? Given that we vote for a party it is totally bizarre that someone is allowed to take that vote with them when they change parties.
 
noxibox said:
Proportional representation is used quite widely, in various forms. As with other democratic voting systems it has its pros and cons.

Where would the other parties stand if we instead voted for candidates in a winner takes all system?

However why is floor crossing allowed in South Africa? Given that we vote for a party it is totally bizarre that someone is allowed to take that vote with them when they change parties.
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Floor crossing has been abolished. The ANC changed the constitution, with the support of all other parties.
 
noxibox said:
Proportional representation is used quite widely, in various forms. As with other democratic voting systems it has its pros and cons.

Where would the other parties stand if we instead voted for candidates in a winner takes all system?

However why is floor crossing allowed in South Africa? Given that we vote for a party it is totally bizarre that someone is allowed to take that vote with them when they change parties.
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Constituency-elected MPs would work for the benefit of their particular electorate and not necessarily agree with party policy; to always agree with the party might cost that individual his seat (much like US Congress). In that instance a 2/3 majority might not be such a bad thing as not all ANC MPs would vote for a constitutional change.

I think this is a very necessary and real change that we need to see happen. The SA system is used in very few countries, I now understand why: less accountability to the people they are representing and fear of losing their seat if they disagree with their party.
 
Nika said:
Floor crossing has been abolished. The ANC changed the constitution, with the support of all other parties.
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Now when all (or most) parties agree on a change to the constitution I think its all good. But one party should never be tempted with such power. Fortunately it looks like those days are behind us.
 
Nika said:
Why is south africas election, which was described by international observers as free and fair(like the previous 3), seen by some as the collapse of south africa into just another african country? Surely this is the exact opposite of what happens in most african countries?(ask zim)
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My guess : because of the controversy around the leader of the party that won the election.

What % of the ANC NEC has been convicted of crimes post-apartheid again?
 
larrychang said:
2.5% (or 2 individuals) - I think...
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"Zille said on Monday that besides the seven convicted criminals on the ANC's national executive committee (NEC), six NEC members are currently the subject of criminal investigations. At least two of these are currently being investigated by the Scorpions."

link

Why does this not bother people? What does it say about your party?
 
timgaul said:
- Finally, our electorate is highly uneducated (in matters of politics) and merely vote for a particular party on the basis of some almost historical right and legacy, which no longer exists. Proper education would give them the choice to place a representative in power who will fight for their rights, and also hold accountable anyone who does not.
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this says it best.
 
thatdamnJoe said:
"Zille said on Monday that besides the seven convicted criminals on the ANC's national executive committee (NEC), six NEC members are currently the subject of criminal investigations. At least two of these are currently being investigated by the Scorpions."

link

Why does this not bother people? What does it say about your party?
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The more corrupt your leaders are, the more corrupt you can be. It make sense at some level.
 
larrychang said:
so we are all going to be (or are) corrupt.
the ANC (corrupt) leads SA, not just a portion of it.
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Sometimes mate you take things way to literal :D

Think of the parent child situation, the parent leads by example, the child follows...
 
larrychang said:
so we are all going to be (or are) corrupt.
the ANC (corrupt) leads SA, not just a portion of it.
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Its the general degradation of society. Ask a German in 1921 whether they would be capable of mass murder in concentration camps and they would have give you a firm negative. However, 20 years later they were doing just that. There leadership had taught and instilled a mass hysteria and a basic hatred into the average citizens.

That is why these people are out leaders, the masses look up to them for guidance. Should the condone wrongdoing the citizens of this country begin to believe it is justifiable at all levels.
 
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