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If this is really true then our beloved Telkom may have a screeching fit as of yet.
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redheadfan
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Old news and potentially very good for us, but the big question is the landing station. Tata (VSNL) are investors in SAT 3, but currently Telkom controls the landing station in SA. Assuming Neotel does get direct access to SAT 3 they should have unparalleled quality.
redheadfan
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All I wanna know is: How much? When? Latency? International Gaming?
Check out their site goal.co.za
What I heard from an industry insider: their servers are all in Gauteng and therefore latency is a problem for Cape Town folk.
Prometheus
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They are actually starting to provide dates and within days statements. The only thing I am interested in now is price. I don't need speed and latency but a simple connection that I can use as much aS I want without paying a fortune.
Anybody doubting the technology should just wake up and smell the coffee 'cause it works. You have your doubts about amplifiers, well the best amplifiers were made by amateurs. Filters, well the best were made by amateurs again. PLC might have been perfected by big name companies but again they are not the inventors which is again amateurs. Amateurs like the schoolboy using the ground and a tap to communicate. Now using two lines which is already in use should be no sweat.
Actually as mentioned before this is a completely separately injected signal. If the power goes out you still have your net provided you took the necessary precautions and may even have slightly better performance. Now I too have my doubts about GTS but not about PLC. It may not be as fast as adsl in theory but I don't doubt for a second it will beat our 4Mbps lines.
Anybody doubting the technology should just wake up and smell the coffee 'cause it works. You have your doubts about amplifiers, well the best amplifiers were made by amateurs. Filters, well the best were made by amateurs again. PLC might have been perfected by big name companies but again they are not the inventors which is again amateurs. Amateurs like the schoolboy using the ground and a tap to communicate. Now using two lines which is already in use should be no sweat.
-toady-
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Well, my biggest gripe with this company has been the fact that trying to contact them through their "contact us" e-mail address has proved as useful as trying to get Sarel Seemonster a recurring guest-spot on Sesame Street!
The article (again) claims "Maguire promises an announcement on its website, goal.co.za, in this regard in the next few days." It has been 6 days now and the www.goal.co.za website has not changed a bit (byte), as in the last 12 months - let's see what happens.
P.S. Dejavu - is setting in - remember the hype Richard Branson tried to create with cellular number portability? I think these people get cheap kicks out of us long-suffering SA ITC victims…
The article (again) claims "Maguire promises an announcement on its website, goal.co.za, in this regard in the next few days." It has been 6 days now and the www.goal.co.za website has not changed a bit (byte), as in the last 12 months - let's see what happens.
P.S. Dejavu - is setting in - remember the hype Richard Branson tried to create with cellular number portability? I think these people get cheap kicks out of us long-suffering SA ITC victims…
Received a document today from Australia that clearly shows the BPL signal rides on the 50Hz wave. I have some evidence now to back my claim. More will be forthcoming...
I have identified the chipset GOAL intend to use and I am awaiting a response from the manufacturer.
I have identified the chipset GOAL intend to use and I am awaiting a response from the manufacturer.
Roman4604
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Maybe it does, but at what cost?
Certainly got the Oz HAMies up in arms ... http://homepages.ihug.com.au/~vk5vka/stopbpl.htm.
Important part to note is that equipment being used in the Tasmanian trail is the same as GTS is using, namely Mitsubishi's DS2 kit.
Wonder if the SA HAMies will be start toi-toi'ing soon?
Prometheus
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Ok, so what is the difference between BPL and DSL in terms of interference. DSL uses high voltages over the same frequencies, it's the number of frequencies determining the speed that can be reached. Nobody is complaining about DSL lines which was meant to deliver telephone communications just like power lines were meant to deliver power. The Aussie Hammies site seems to be "hamming" to much on pirating, porn, streaming, and spam. They are giving away their impartiality and one can also ask what vested interest they have without any definitive results. Does microwave processors ring a bell?
DragonLogos
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BPL uses a carrier on the power wave, much like FM Radio - The Data signal causes a bleed onto radio frequencies... which is the moan they are having - They are working on trying to get around it
However I see no reason why this technology cannot be used in rural areas TOGETHER with other methods
SA Voltage is one cycle short BTW - it was dropped back in the days of the energy crisis, and as it saves power and money, it was kept that way, just like Municipality still keep fines in place for excessive water use, even though droughts are over
However I see no reason why this technology cannot be used in rural areas TOGETHER with other methods
SA Voltage is one cycle short BTW - it was dropped back in the days of the energy crisis, and as it saves power and money, it was kept that way, just like Municipality still keep fines in place for excessive water use, even though droughts are over
Roman4604
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@Prometheus - my post was more of a rag at HAMies then anything else.
Interference aside, I've done some calculation around BPL and it does not make financial sense to me, it's way to captial intesive. The one thing no one in BPL mentions is that the effective range from the head-end (a.k.a DSLAM) to the CPE is only a few 100 metres (300 max AFIK).
This means one has to deploy cr@p loads of head-end units to achieve wide regional, nevermind national coverage. The costs of the units themselves is not even the problem, but providing backhaul for each does get very expensive (even using a tiered aggregation approach of block-suburb-region etc.)
Unless you have access to cheap copper or fiber (everywhere you want to be) your probably going to need to use wireless for back-haul, but then you might as well use wireless end-to-end. In my personal opinion you have to read between the lines ... they use such aggressive takeup numbers (i.e. 1m by 2010) cause if they dont, their business model dont work.
Interference aside, I've done some calculation around BPL and it does not make financial sense to me, it's way to captial intesive. The one thing no one in BPL mentions is that the effective range from the head-end (a.k.a DSLAM) to the CPE is only a few 100 metres (300 max AFIK).
This means one has to deploy cr@p loads of head-end units to achieve wide regional, nevermind national coverage. The costs of the units themselves is not even the problem, but providing backhaul for each does get very expensive (even using a tiered aggregation approach of block-suburb-region etc.)
Unless you have access to cheap copper or fiber (everywhere you want to be) your probably going to need to use wireless for back-haul, but then you might as well use wireless end-to-end. In my personal opinion you have to read between the lines ... they use such aggressive takeup numbers (i.e. 1m by 2010) cause if they dont, their business model dont work.
Prometheus
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Ok, sorry, didn't realise it.
I don't know the effective range but they won't be using it if it doesn't work. With the advances in fibre providing backhaul could not be that expensive if FTTH can be provided at the price of DSL. Then to consider that every other technology needs backhaul too.
Hi guys,
I see there is a lot of interest here in the PLC technology that GTS is using. Because of space reasons I had to leave quite a bit out of my original story that was published in the FM. Below are some freeflow notes from my interview with Adrian Maguire where he goes into some of the more technical aspects of the service. Hope this will help answer some of the questions that have been asked in this forum or at least prove useful as a starting point for further research.
Note: The company's equipment supplier is now DefiDav (I stand to be corrected on the spelling), which is a French company. DefiDav also uses the DS2 chipset. GTS is also still working with Mitsubishi but my understanding is that DefiDav is now their principal supplier. DefiDav not only develops access equipment but also consumer equipment such as PLC intercoms and PLC IP cameras.
Okay, the free-form notes I took in my interview:
"How does it actually work? We don't use the electricity on the cable. We do passive coupling onto the network. We don't cut the cable or splice the cable. The way we transmit it is with a radio frequency. We use OFDM. If it's lead or aluminium or steel, as long as it can conduct electricity it will carry our signal quite effectively along that. DS2-designed chipsets so the technology works in pretty wild environments where there's a lot of noise – from angle grinders to microwaves, etc."
"OFDM allows us to do dynamic notching: once you've set up the frequency spectrum in which we want to work and suddenly there is interference because of a washing machine or microwave, it has its own intelligence, it looks at the frequency spectrum 1500x per second and what happens is it moves its communication away from that noise. It doesn't try to fight it. When the noise moves away, it goes back to that frequency."
"Amplifying the DBs to be greater than the interference is problematic. OFDM says won't transmit there, it will shift to a different frequency. Each plug socket point has its own characteristic. Every one of our CPE modems has the capability of dynamic notching. Technology can also see where there are occasional but regular bursts on a particular frequency and not use that particular frequency."
"We always let other frequencies pass first. We never interfere with anything."
"Depending on the way we design our network: lower frequencies travel further. Higher frequencies have higher bandwidth speeds. In the access layer, if the houses are close to each other, we can focus all our attention at higher frequencies for higher bandwidth. In a farming area, we can go further using lower frequencies but get lower speeds."
"We have designed an intelligent program to design our network. We have the head-end and the CPEs. It works as as a point-to-point master-slave. 1500 times a second the head-end communicates with the CPEs and builds the most optimal pipe on the OFDM layer to keep the bandwidth as high as possible."
"We also have a lot of authentication on this. A new customer comes on board. Once CPE is connected, the head-end downloads all the rights and nonrights onto the CPE – to determine if a person subscribes to TV, Internet, etc."
"There's no hardware programming on the CPE. Once you've paid your account and you get your CPE. There's a MAC address on it. You plug it in and you get your services."
"CPE is about the same price of an ADSL modem. But we don't want the customers to have to purchase a CPE."
We are in a lot of discussions with a lot of municipalities. Can't elaborate too much right now but our offering to the municipalities is phenomenal. We are offering to deliver a broadband network at cheaper cost to consumers and at no cost to the municipalities. They are very receptive and very excited about it."
"What are the distance limitations? "It's the same as the electricity network. 220V usually runs 300m to 350m. Head-ends will be installed in the mini-subs. Every time we install a head-end we light up 50 houses."
Cheers,
Duncan
I see there is a lot of interest here in the PLC technology that GTS is using. Because of space reasons I had to leave quite a bit out of my original story that was published in the FM. Below are some freeflow notes from my interview with Adrian Maguire where he goes into some of the more technical aspects of the service. Hope this will help answer some of the questions that have been asked in this forum or at least prove useful as a starting point for further research.
Note: The company's equipment supplier is now DefiDav (I stand to be corrected on the spelling), which is a French company. DefiDav also uses the DS2 chipset. GTS is also still working with Mitsubishi but my understanding is that DefiDav is now their principal supplier. DefiDav not only develops access equipment but also consumer equipment such as PLC intercoms and PLC IP cameras.
Okay, the free-form notes I took in my interview:
"How does it actually work? We don't use the electricity on the cable. We do passive coupling onto the network. We don't cut the cable or splice the cable. The way we transmit it is with a radio frequency. We use OFDM. If it's lead or aluminium or steel, as long as it can conduct electricity it will carry our signal quite effectively along that. DS2-designed chipsets so the technology works in pretty wild environments where there's a lot of noise – from angle grinders to microwaves, etc."
"OFDM allows us to do dynamic notching: once you've set up the frequency spectrum in which we want to work and suddenly there is interference because of a washing machine or microwave, it has its own intelligence, it looks at the frequency spectrum 1500x per second and what happens is it moves its communication away from that noise. It doesn't try to fight it. When the noise moves away, it goes back to that frequency."
"Amplifying the DBs to be greater than the interference is problematic. OFDM says won't transmit there, it will shift to a different frequency. Each plug socket point has its own characteristic. Every one of our CPE modems has the capability of dynamic notching. Technology can also see where there are occasional but regular bursts on a particular frequency and not use that particular frequency."
"We always let other frequencies pass first. We never interfere with anything."
"Depending on the way we design our network: lower frequencies travel further. Higher frequencies have higher bandwidth speeds. In the access layer, if the houses are close to each other, we can focus all our attention at higher frequencies for higher bandwidth. In a farming area, we can go further using lower frequencies but get lower speeds."
"We have designed an intelligent program to design our network. We have the head-end and the CPEs. It works as as a point-to-point master-slave. 1500 times a second the head-end communicates with the CPEs and builds the most optimal pipe on the OFDM layer to keep the bandwidth as high as possible."
"We also have a lot of authentication on this. A new customer comes on board. Once CPE is connected, the head-end downloads all the rights and nonrights onto the CPE – to determine if a person subscribes to TV, Internet, etc."
"There's no hardware programming on the CPE. Once you've paid your account and you get your CPE. There's a MAC address on it. You plug it in and you get your services."
"CPE is about the same price of an ADSL modem. But we don't want the customers to have to purchase a CPE."
We are in a lot of discussions with a lot of municipalities. Can't elaborate too much right now but our offering to the municipalities is phenomenal. We are offering to deliver a broadband network at cheaper cost to consumers and at no cost to the municipalities. They are very receptive and very excited about it."
"What are the distance limitations? "It's the same as the electricity network. 220V usually runs 300m to 350m. Head-ends will be installed in the mini-subs. Every time we install a head-end we light up 50 houses."
Cheers,
Duncan
I accept even if there is a power failure this system is still suppose to work since the signal should still be able to transmit - however, I presume the Head-end units at the mini-subs will need power to function properly, so will they have enough power (battery power??) to function during a prolonged power failure?
IMO they will probably launch the 20gb cap once they have secured access to SAT3 either via Telkom (highly unlikely) or Neotel (if they use Telkom landing stations or building their own).
I gather they are aiming more for the mass market than high volume, high paying customers. It is thus essential to get as many customers as fast as possible, so giving away their modems will remove the large entry barrier to BB access that exist for iBurst for instance. It will also make R200/m BB more of a real business case. It all depends on how deep their pockets are to sustain a fast roll-out (capex) vs slow steady roll-out that iBurst is following.
IMO they will probably launch the 20gb cap once they have secured access to SAT3 either via Telkom (highly unlikely) or Neotel (if they use Telkom landing stations or building their own).
I gather they are aiming more for the mass market than high volume, high paying customers. It is thus essential to get as many customers as fast as possible, so giving away their modems will remove the large entry barrier to BB access that exist for iBurst for instance. It will also make R200/m BB more of a real business case. It all depends on how deep their pockets are to sustain a fast roll-out (capex) vs slow steady roll-out that iBurst is following.
Interesting stuff there Duncan, thanks.
I'm still wondering about latency. If you look at IS which has to go work through the ghastly bottelneck which is the SAIX peering link thing, you normally have higher latency on SAIX networks or international traffic. I can't help but think that the same problem lies in wait for PLC. This puts me off even looking at it, without any evidence to the contrary. That said I still hope it works, and works well and comes it at an affordable price, not the high price advertised on their website.
I'm still wondering about latency. If you look at IS which has to go work through the ghastly bottelneck which is the SAIX peering link thing, you normally have higher latency on SAIX networks or international traffic. I can't help but think that the same problem lies in wait for PLC. This puts me off even looking at it, without any evidence to the contrary. That said I still hope it works, and works well and comes it at an affordable price, not the high price advertised on their website.
Roman4604
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Again I would raise the point of mathematical feasibility.
Even being outrageously generous by saying they will get 50% uptake in each area 'lighten' you land up with a CPE to head-end ratio of 25 to 1. So to service 1mil customers they need to deploy a network of roughly 40,000 head-end units and their associated back-haul links (excluding any dual-homed redundancy).
In comparison I would estimate Telkom's ADSL subscriber to DSLAM/back-haul (at the local exchanges) ratio is several 100 to 1, and their sizable technician force is barely able to service 200K customers adequetly.
And this huge infrastructure maintanace overhead is going to be funded by R200 per subscriber? Maybe I'm missing something, but it just doesn't make sense to me.