Prius more damaging in the long run?

[Pitbull]

I read a pretty good article regarding the "Greenies" Now as to how much is fact and how much is fiction is everyone's guess but it makes on wonder:

Now the Batteries inside the Prius is made from Nickel = NiMH (Nickel-Metal Hydride). Nickel for the Prius batteries come from mines in Canada. Now think about all the oil drinking machines used to mine the nickel. Then it needs to be shipped to Europe, where it is processed (More oil drinking machines involved).

From Europe it is then shipped to Japan for use in the Prius (You guessed it, more oil drinking machines).

This all above and beyond the actual problem with the Nickel and and and.

Pretty interresting. Trying to find that read again (Read it last night) will provide a link to it in a bit...

 

[Polymathic]

I heard that on top gear while back

 

[Pitbull]

I heard that on top gear while back

The one I read was also comparing a Hummer vs a Prius. Searching for it now again, back tracking the links I took last night

 

[BCO]

Hummer vs Prius has been debunked several times before, but you know what they say - FUD never dies. Also, the majority of nickel mined is used in chroming, not in making NimH batteries.

You're basing your claim on a dubious study done by CNW Marketing Research. Their study made a lot of false assumptions as starting points like:

"Dust to Dust" makes a gaggle of inexplicable assumptions, such as claiming that a Prius will last only 109,000 miles, well below the stated "industry straight average" of 178,739 miles—not to mention the whopping 379,000 miles ascribed to the Hummer H1. CNW says that Prius owners simply drive less than their peers, but it's impossible to tell where that data (as well as virtually everything else in the report) come from. In at least seven states, Toyota offers a 150,000-mile warranty on the Prius' hybrid components, including the battery—it's tough to fathom the company's actuaries agreeing to such a warranty if that 109,000-mile figure was correct.

Why do "anti-greenies" feel it's ok to lie all the time?

http://www.slate.com/id/2186786/pagenum/all/#p2

 

[alloytoo]

Hummer vs Prius has been debunked several times before,

The questions should rather be:

Over the lifetime of the vehicle will the Prius use more resources overall than say a VW Blue motion TDi.

FUD aside, there is the cost of battery manufacture and disposal (Recycle), the cost of maintainence regimes (outside the industry norm), and the ultimate longevity of the vehicle.

I don't think any of these vehicles have a serious resale much beyond their warrenties, the cost of battery replacement will simply exceed the value of the car (especially in poorer economies).

Then there's the simple practicalities of the space sacrificed for the batteries.

My old boss's Lexus hyrbrid had a smaller boot than a Corolla, is that "fit for purpose"?

 

[HavocXphere]

Pretty sure a proper diesel will beat a prius on both economy and emissions.

 

[Pitbull]

Hummer vs Prius has been debunked several times before, but you know what they say - FUD never dies. Also, the majority of nickel mined is used in chroming, not in making NimH batteries.

You're basing your claim on a dubious study done by CNW Marketing Research. Their study made a lot of false assumptions as starting points like:



Why do "anti-greenies" feel it's ok to lie all the time?

http://www.slate.com/id/2186786/pagenum/all/#p2

Huh?

You missed everything I mentioned above. It's not about how much this car costs vs this car and how many km's A will do vs B and so on. (I'll admit it does add more fuel to the fire though) I was talking about the damage done to our earth in getting these cars just to be able to drive. The Prius is millions of miles behind even before starting to compare the cars from day one as they did with the 2 cars.

Yes I agree the Hummer was a bad comparison, but they took the worst car vs the perceived best car. If you where to take a Chevy Aveo vs a Prius the Prius would be WTFPWNED.

That being said, I also read that Toyota is changing the Batteries now from Nickel (meaning the guys had a point )

 

[d0b33]

l/100km on a prius makes up for all the fud. I'll get one as my next car.

 

[alloytoo]

l/100km on a prius makes up for all the fud. I'll get one as my next car.

Better off with a Beemer

 

[LazyLion]

dang, now I'm gonna have to go out and burn some more tires just to make up for all you tree-huggers.

 

[BCO]

Huh?

You missed everything I mentioned above. It's not about how much this car costs vs this car and how many km's A will do vs B and so on. (I'll admit it does add more fuel to the fire though) I was talking about the damage done to our earth in getting these cars just to be able to drive. The Prius is millions of miles behind even before starting to compare the cars from day one as they did with the 2 cars.

From the same article I linked:

Another major part of the anti-Prius meme is that the car's battery uses 32 pounds of nickel, mined in Sudbury, Ontario. The skeptical e-mails often state that Sudbury is an environmental wasteland that resembles "a surrealistic scene from the depths of hell." That assertion might have been true about three decades ago, long before the Prius. Nickel mining is by no means a clean endeavor, but Sudbury's conditions have improved in recent years. On top of that, all cars contain nickel in their frames—the Hummer's frame, for example, has twice as much nickel as the Prius'. Also, nickel is 80 percent to 95 percent recoverable during the recycling process.

Yes I agree the Hummer was a bad comparison, but they took the worst car vs the perceived best car. If you where to take a Chevy Aveo vs a Prius the Prius would be WTFPWNED.

You're right - IMO currently the most eco friendly car out there is the Fiat 500 Twinair. That being said the Prius is a much bigger and more luxurious car than an Aveo or a 500, so it's a bit of an unfair comparison to make.

That being said, I also read that Toyota is changing the Batteries now from Nickel (meaning the guys had a point )

Not because of the environmental hazards of mining nickel, but because lithium-ion batteries have a higher energy density.

 

[BCO]

Better off with a Beemer

A bit disingenuous to compare them on a long open road trip where the strength of a hybrid is in urban environments. They did 460 miles on the open road and 100 miles in town environments and the beemer came out at 2mpg better. Given that diesel emits about 10% more CO2 and a helluva lot more NOx and particulates per litre of fuel burned, the beemer's still not as clean as the Prius (at least in terms of driving, wells-to-wheels might be slightly different).

 

[d0b33]

Better off with a Beemer

I won't be racing the prius but using it economically.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp
City driving is 51MPG! beat that.

 

[alloytoo]

I won't be racing the prius but using it economically.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/topten.jsp
City driving is 51MPG! beat that.

Sure 4 times

 

[alloytoo]

A bit disingenuous to compare them on a long open road trip where the strength of a hybrid is in urban environments. They did 460 miles on the open road and 100 miles in town environments and the beemer came out at 2mpg better. Given that diesel emits about 10% more CO2 and a helluva lot more NOx and particulates per litre of fuel burned, the beemer's still not as clean as the Prius (at least in terms of driving, wells-to-wheels might be slightly different).

Ah but the Beemer driver enjoyed econ and tunes.

My point being that given the price, and the disposal costs the Prius is not an economical option.

 

[d0b33]

Sure 4 times

Not bad cars there... all are green.

Edit:
But I meant petrol, not diesels.

 

[BCO]

Ah but the Beemer driver enjoyed econ and tunes.

My point being that given the price, and the disposal costs the Prius is not an economical option.

The BMW was 7000 pounds more expensive than the Prius!

*edit*

Also worth noting is that the current Prius is something like 25% more powerful and 10% more economical than the older model which was discussed in both those articles.

 

[alloytoo]

The BMW was 7000 pounds more expensive than the Prius!

Don't worry you can make that up in fuel costs.

Also worth noting is that the current Prius is something like 25% more powerful and 10% more economical than the older model which was discussed in both those articles.

Still more expensive?

Frankly I'd rather drive the Fiat Twin air, It looks cool and no battery disposal headache.

 

[BCO]

Don't worry you can make that up in fuel costs.



Still more expensive?

Frankly I'd rather drive the Fiat Twin air, It looks cool and no battery disposal headache.

Agreed on the twinair, btw.

But, what battery disposal headache? NimH is highly recyclable and Toyota actually pays customers to return the battery packs to Toyota. That being said, there are many many 10y/o+ Priuses running around on original battery packs.

 

[HavocXphere]

These hybrid measurements are dodge anyway. They start with two energy sources (battery and fuel), do the run and only measure the fuel side not accounting for the fact that you need to get the energy into the battery in the first place. i.e. it doesn't reflect real-world total economy.

To make it fair & comparable to other MPGs the hybrids should start with a flat battery, run until the battery is charged (using *fuel* ffs) and then do the run. (Or alternatively start driving immediately & charge on the go).

And I suspect that if you remove that unfair advantage the prius will lose against most diesels out there.