Programmers should ‘grow up'

[w1z4rd]

Programmers should ‘grow up'
BY PAUL VECCHIATTO, ITWEB CAPE TOWN CORRESPONDENT
http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/software/2005/0507071116.asp?A=APD&S=Software Development&O=FPT

[Cape Town | ITWeb, 7 July 2005] - Software programmers are not mature enough to be full business partners, because of their inability to meet commitments, says Kent Beck, one of the creators of eXtreme Programming.

“The world is changing and programmers are no longer the centre of the universe. The question is: ‘Can programmers change along with the rest of the world?'” he says.

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Beck made these comments yesterday at a talk at the University of Cape Town, which was part of the second leg of his South African tour. He has addressed audiences in Johannesburg and visited local banks and other organisations.

He says programmers have had a “free pass” for the last 50 years. “But all that stuff is over. Businesses want to see how their money is being spent and programmers are no longer being allowed to ‘work the magic' they once were able to.”

Beck's viewpoint is that programming is just part of many businesses and that programmers have to begin to be accountable for their actions and plan along those lines. This includes implementing testing at an early stage of coding so that bugs can be ironed out as soon as possible.

He also maintains the view that a key reason for developed countries increasingly outsourcing software development to other countries is because programmers there are willing to make commitments.

“Programmers in countries such as India and China are willing to give estimates on how long and how much compiling a program should cost and then do their best to meet those expectations. Offshoring is about transparency and commitments, not just about costs.”

Beck says the future of programming could be one of two scenarios. “Either programmers become the equivalent of clerks, or they can become far more professional in their behaviour so they can participate fully in business decisions.”

 

[stoke]

Sheesh - what blerry dream world is this oke living in ?

I've never not had commitments to offer and meet.

 

[guest2013-1]

Yes, this dude is dillusional.

You can never give someone an estimate or keep to "your commitment" if the client keeps on changing their mind.

If the client spends their time developing a solid business plan as to how they want the program to function, what business rules apply, even where they want the buttons to be, then it is pretty easy.

But with today's society, you get "build me a program" and thats basically it. Also, they come with near impossible tasks. "When I click this button I want the moon to shift into a solar eclipse so that my kids in australia can have a shadow for 15 minutes while they chat with daddy on the pool"

Even though I'd be able to write that with the correct interfaces in place and working... requests like that more than often keep me working through weekends/through the night just to give them what they want.

So screw this Kent Beck prick. He probably has his MBA (from Soweto university lucky packet draw) and feel that "we" now have to dance around management's shoes?

Ha, the REASON why programmers and business partners don't mix is because business partners are usually the ones that CANT ADAPT

ek brand sommer sy huis af

 

[fergus]

I didn't know he was in the country. Anybody know if he's going to be giving anymore talks. I'd be interested to go listen to one.

 

[guest2013-1]

wtf is he anyway?

 

[Luke7777]

Also, they come with near impossible tasks. "When I click this button I want the moon to shift into a solar eclipse so that my kids in australia can have a shadow for 15 minutes while they chat with daddy on the pool"

/ me just completed that, then WTF ? Somebody took a potshot at a bloody comet, screwing up the moonshift.dll and corrupting shadow.dll !!! bloody BSOD's all over Need to recallibrate again

 

[kb]

He also maintains the view that a key reason for developed countries increasingly outsourcing software development to other countries is because programmers there are willing to make commitments.

Bullsh!t - The key reason, is all about profit and cheap labour.

 

[bb_matt]

Sounds like a bit of a clueless marketing plonker to me, leaving in some utopian dreamworld where clients know exactly what they want.

I've recently "taken myself" off a programming project that my company was heading and handed it over to the programmers company, because I'm sick and tired of the BS the client is giving me - I've sat on the project for 8 months and the goal posts have been moved so many damn times, it's just not worth the money or my time.

That is the reality.

The programmers get f@cked around by clients who simply don't know what they want until they see something and as soon as they see something, they want to change it, or they want the impossible.

I think Kent Beck has had some experience with immature programmers and has come to a bold conclusion that they are all like that.

Well, I've worked with plenty of programmers and I've yet to meet one who isn't passionate and mature about their jobs. Obviously Kent Beck is looking in the wrong places ...

To blame a programmer on non-delivery is stupid, absolutely stupid.
It means that the project management team haven't been doing their job properly and/or they are unable to get the client to "play ball"

 

[mbs]

fergus, you'll learn more about 'extreme programming' through surfing - don't waste your time and bux listening to idjits who have coined a lucrative marketing approach to the everyday activity of those working out of a sense of committment, adventure and love of the task itself, and who have to battle every day with corporate profit imperatives so far removed from reality that it's really sad...

 

[stoke]

I'd be willing to bet some serious money that this oke is an American bul****ter/conartist/consultant.
The kind of person that advises confused executives, and then comes up with a multi-bllion rand solution for a R10 problem.
Oh well - now i'm stooping lower than him. /Me stops.

 

[Kei]

I agree that this article is bull****...

the kind of crap the boss's son sends round here at work on e-mail and for which I have created a mail rule that deletes it!

 

[nOhIwAy]

Ah yes, there are some fantastic "buy a program on the net" options.

But can business provide the accurate brief needed to ensure they get what they need ??

 

[Luke7777]

replacing "programmers" with "politicians" and "programming" with "Government"

Politicians should ‘grow up'
BY PAUL VECCHIATTO, ITWEB CAPE TOWN CORRESPONDENT
http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/software/2005/0507071116.asp?A=APD&S=Software Development&O=FPT

[Cape Town | ITWeb, 7 July 2005] - Politicians are not mature enough to be full business partners, because of their inability to meet commitments, says Kent Beck, one of the creators of eXtreme Government.

“The world is changing and politicians are no longer the centre of the universe. The question is: ‘Can politicians change along with the rest of the world?'” he says.

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Beck made these comments yesterday at a talk at the University of Cape Town, which was part of the second leg of his South African tour. He has addressed audiences in Johannesburg and visited local banks and other organisations.

He says politicians have had a “free pass” for the last 50 years. “But all that stuff is over. Businesses want to see how their money is being spent and politicians are no longer being allowed to ‘work the magic' they once were able to.”

Beck's viewpoint is that government is just part of many businesses and that politicians have to begin to be accountable for their actions and plan along those lines.

<SNIP> /* didn't fit the specs

Beck says the future of government could be one of two scenarios. “Either politicians become the equivalent of clerks, or they can become far more professional in their behaviour so they can participate fully in business decisions.”

 

[stoke]

So then what'ure all saying is that programmers should grow-up, we should go and analyse the business and then write the software.
i.e. Provide the fullblownservice that the stupid cliient requires.
i.e. Get rid of analysts, managers, directors ...

/Okay.

 

[Page]

wtf? what a load of SH*T.
Sheesh if my boss can for one day just decide not to change the g***amn specs he gave me in the first place, my current project would have been out the door weeks ago.
Management & Programmers don't mix.
Clearly this **swipe has never seen the inside of a REAL software house.

 

[guest2013-1]

So then what'ure all saying is that programmers should grow-up, we should go and analyse the business and then write the software.
i.e. Provide the fullblownservice that the stupid cliient requires.
i.e. Get rid of analysts, managers, directors ...

/Okay.

Touche brutha. That was what I was thinking.

The problem also is that these punters are trying to sell the programming world as "a dime a dozen" and "why hire 1 good programmer at 25k if you can hire 7 of them for the same amount!"

Thats cause a good programmer can knock out 7 junior's tasks in no time...

*sigh* With all the **** I have to put up with from the client it isn't suprising that I'm on the verge of suicide...

 

[Luke7777]

Thats cause a good programmer can knock out 7 junior's tasks in no time...

So true, and without having to spec it in *detail* first[/QUOTE]

*sigh* With all the **** I have to put up with from the client it isn't suprising that I'm on the verge of suicide...

which is why you need a decent business analyst from time to time, ideal person to "vent" on without fear of losing the client

 

[stoke]

The catch is, that while we're our doing site and business flow analysys, the code world has moved on to a completely new language with new methodology and accepted norms, and then the code we produce after having done the stupid surveys is outdated and we get fired anyway.

So - howz about the freaking analysts just do their damn jobs correctly the first time hey?

noone - suicide ? - don't bother - getting fired is much more fun than suicide.

 

[rabbiddog]

The problem comes from managers not knowing what programmers do. In most companies the IT manager knows a big fat 0 in development. In the software companies I have worked for (apart from one time), the IT manager and had to be a (experianced) developer, so we had no problems. In the other case he was an ape who did not know what a program was...I left.

 

[pookfuzz]

Although article makes some valid points, his conclusions are very wrong. Delays are seldom caused by the programmers; they are almost always caused by management changing specifications. Delays are not due to programmer immaturity. Not being able to deal with delays is a sure sign of management immaturity/incompetence, if management did their job delays would be anticipated and contingency plans in place.

Perhaps management should be outsourced to India, after all management are the ones getting the fat salaries so the saving should be massive, combined with the fact management don't usually do all that much except ask "are we there yet" a lot. I think the risks would be much lower as the job is technically less challenging.

Also if you do any reading up on outsourcing you will see its not as great as its often made out, getting what you want is not easy, there are language barriers as well as time zone barriers which make any kind of collaboration difficult. You have to be very specific and detailed in exactly what you want and how you want it to work, and even then its still a risk they may not understand quite right.

As for programmers being clerks, the idea is idiotic. Programmers are creative people, you will find the more creative they are the better the solutions often are, maybe it is also expected that graphic designers should be replaced with photocopy machines, makes about as much sense.

The whole thing sounds like something that is carefully crafted to appeal to management type, the ones who make financial choices. I think the real question that needs to be asked is who is going to make money from this line of thinking. Kent Beck by any chance since he seems to be in the business of selling books?