Proteas vs West Indies: 2014/15

[Badprop_za]

Look QdK was picked and he really struggled over several games before he came right, just like Abbott & Rilee now. But QdK at least managed to look like a world top 15 batsmen after that patience was extended.

Certain things also come into the mix which is why players don't get groomed consistently enough. Player similarities. Abbott had a great start to his Test career but couldn;t build on it. Why? He's a bit like Tsotsobe&Philander. Medium pace, relies on swing. His only disadvantage is Philander swings it more, while Tsotsobe has height advantage on release, left handed and like Philander swings it more than him. If he had continued bowling in Tests who knows if he wouldn't have done well. Marchant being a tall, express pace strike bowler liek Morkel meant you could only have one at a time not both.

So you have to blame the selectors in many ways. Philander was consistently dropped form T20s&ODIs for the same reasons Abbott is struggling yet they still picked Abbott. Morris & Rory were dropped for the same reasons, and recently McLaren. At no point has Abbott look significantly better than them so why did he get the nod?

Same applies to Marchant. Great start to his career standing in for Philander when he was injured. At the time Steyn&Philander were by far and away the best. He should've continued but he didn't because no one had the gonads to drop Morkel. The 2nd time Marchant got a chance Philander had already destroyed NZ after Alviro had led to setup a huge score. NZ were set to chase an impossible target with no time left, and lo and behold a Morkel fighting for his place was given the new ball, marchant wasn't. Rest is history.

For other it's just downright bad luck. Viljoen go many chances for the A side probably more than a lot of seamers. He never delivered in any of them. Who knows if other like Abbott had also played similarly or more would they not have been found out at that level an dnot allowed to go further?

The only thing I ask of the selectors - as well fans - is that the same patience shown to the like of Abbott, QdK, Ingram&RR be given to EVERY other player. 15 game shas clearly been the average.

I was always a big fan of Terbrugge. Played 7 tests at an average of around 26. Felt he should played more, but then again, who would they have dropped? Pollock or Ntini. Kallis was the other seamer in the team back then.

I also feel Morris should get an extended run. Same feeling as when Teichman was dropped before '99 RWC. I always hoped that Parnell would become the guy that would give balance in the team with bat and ball. He has given us glimpses, but not enough to still be considered.

 

[Neoprod]

Terbrugge was a fantastic bowler who had rotten luck with injuries. He would have taken a ton of wickets at international level...a genuine loss to the game.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

Sometimes I just dont know where you gets this from, Yes MvW is not as good as boucher, no one in SA is (including Thami). But saying MvW is on par with part timer Colin Ingram, that's a laugh man, honestly, how can you say BS like that on a public forum?
MvW is on par, if not a better keeper than De Villiers and QDK

PS. Not saying Ingram is a bad keeper, but he literally just started out, he might become a real great. But at this stage, there is no way he is on par with MvW.

Just an opinion, and we can agree to disagree there, but in my book no way Boucher is anywhere near as good as Thami. He'd say so himself I think. Boucher wasn't even as good as Taibu. I think any bowler who's experienced both Thami&Boucher keeping will say Thami definitely.

I've watched MvW quite a bit. Him and Vilas had stinkers for the A side against ZIM/BD/AUS/SL A sides etc, with both bat and keeping. Amla lost one of those series which discouraged him from taking captaincy. That CSA ditched them for quite some time after that tells quite a story. You can get discs of those games for free from Supersport. They were quite ordinary and looked inferior to some of the reserve ZIM&BD keepers.

ABdV was criticised by Healy and quite a few keepers. He's not a natural keeper but his excellent fielding abilities help him anticipate better to compensate for his shorcomings. While QdK's weak keeping is common knowledge, but he's grown since then I think. So obviously MvW will be better than them. Maybe I'm talking BS by comparing Ingram to MvW but we've been watching him the last couple of games and he's looked untidy. I was a little bit upset when Ingram kept a certain natural keeper out of the franchise, but some guys a checked with - experienced&watched live - said he's keeping was good enough fo rinternational level.

So maybe no so much a case of BS but "you're being harsh on MvW, Not saying Ingram is a bad keeper, but he literally just started out, he might become a real great. But at this stage, there is no way he is on par with MvW". I've watched a lot of Pro20&ODI domstic games and I don't think MvW is even as good Jacobs or Mosehle. Sorry I don't rate his keeping abilities. Let's try and watch him closely next few games, nit-pick a bit and see.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

I was always a big fan of Terbrugge. Played 7 tests at an average of around 26. Felt he should played more, but then again, who would they have dropped? Pollock or Ntini. Kallis was the other seamer in the team back then.

I also feel Morris should get an extended run. Same feeling as when Teichman was dropped before '99 RWC. I always hoped that Parnell would become the guy that would give balance in the team with bat and ball. He has given us glimpses, but not enough to still be considered.

For Ntini I think you meant Donald? Terbrugge was a bit like F de Wet good, but not good enough to have displaced any of those. The Proteas' Graham Onions perhaps?

F de Wet was fortunate because later on they were ageing, but I'm still surprised he was considered good enough ahead of Ntini. But he's not alone. Andre Nel got in there too. Even McLaren&Parnell were tried, as replacements for Ntini when Morke&Steyn were sort of stepping up.

At the end of the day I get the impression selectors tried too hard to make chancges when they didn't exactly have to. Often I felt because we had such poor spinners (still do considering Piedt&Harmer havent proven themselves as mainstays), there's been too much pressure on the 3rd seamer than was necessary. Not to mention Kallis's "annoying" tendency to outbowl the 3rd seamer.

Ntini didn't need to be dropped. And when you think about it that way, maybe Morkel doesn't need to be dropped either. As long as the top 2 - Fanie+Donald, Donald+Pollock; Pollock+Ntini; Steyn+Ntini; Steyn+Philander etc are doing the job it's ok, the 3rd seamer steps up here&there.

In the end we;ve recycled Rory, Morris, McLaren and now Abbott but none have really done the job. In fact none have really justified why Tsotsobe was dropped after that Pak Arab UAE tour.

Morris looked the real deal, but he's been outbowled by Rory & Rabada for the A side so I think that's curtains for him. Have you looked at the Lions seamers boet? If Morris is not careful he might have to move franchises next season.

Edit: I still believe Parnell is SA's great semaer hope alongside Rabada&Marchant. So we better get used to Parnell. I've already mentioned Gqamane but he's a bit behind Parnell now.

 

[Badprop_za]

For Ntini I think you meant Donald? Terbrugge was a bit like F de Wet good, but not good enough to have displaced any of those. The Proteas' Graham Onions perhaps?

F de Wet was fortunate because later on they were ageing, but I'm still surprised he was considered good enough ahead of Ntini. But he's not alone. Andre Nel got in there too. Even McLaren&Parnell were tried, as replacements for Ntini when Morke&Steyn were sort of stepping up.

At the end of the day I get the impression selectors tried too hard to make chancges when they didn't exactly have to. Often I felt because we had such poor spinners (still do considering Piedt&Harmer havent proven themselves as mainstays), there's been too much pressure on the 3rd seamer than was necessary. Not to mention Kallis's "annoying" tendency to outbowl the 3rd seamer.

Ntini didn't need to be dropped. And when you think about it that way, maybe Morkel doesn't need to be dropped either. As long as the top 2 - Fanie+Donald, Donald+Pollock; Pollock+Ntini; Steyn+Ntini; Steyn+Philander etc are doing the job it's ok, the 3rd seamer steps up here&there.

In the end we;ve recycled Rory, Morris, McLaren and now Abbott but none have really done the job. In fact none have really justified why Tsotsobe was dropped after that Pak Arab UAE tour.

Morris looked the real deal, but he's been outbowled by Rory & Rabada for the A side so I think that's curtains for him. Have you looked at the Lions seamers boet? If Morris is not careful he might have to move franchises next season.

Edit: I still believe Parnell is SA's great semaer hope alongside Rabada&Marchant. So we better get used to Parnell. I've already mentioned Gqamane but he's a bit behind Parnell now.

Would have loved to see what Ngam could have done. Such a shame. Don't get me started on Nel. I just could not get a liking in the oke. Zondeki was also tried...

 

[MickeyD]

Would have loved to see what Ngam could have done. Such a shame.

We played for the same club side... I was coming to the end of my career when he hit his straps. All I can say is thank goodness I was on his side. Although Wayward Hayward was also around and he was VERY quick and VERY wild!!!

 

[sand_man]

Ngam was awesome! Would have gone on to great things! A huge loss!

How's the weather looking? JHB is still over cast with intermittent drizzle!!

 

[Ho3n3r]

Intermittent rain here today. Not betting on a full game at the moment. Still heavily overcast.

 

[Badprop_za]

We played for the same club side... I was coming to the end of my career when he hit his straps. All I can say is thank goodness I was on his side. Although Wayward Hayward was also around and he was VERY quick and VERY wild!!!

For me, Wayward had pace and nothing else. On the big stage, pace only takes you that far.
My brother faced Donald as well in the late 80s. Lets just say he did not see much of his bowling.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

We played for the same club side... I was coming to the end of my career when he hit his straps. All I can say is thank goodness I was on his side. Although Wayward Hayward was also around and he was VERY quick and VERY wild!!!

There's a scientists' report I read. Should be somewhere in my hard drive. Was based on nutrition among Africans. They went to great lengths to explain how that affected Ngam&Zondeki. How brittle it made them in sports. To date I still don't get why those refences to them were made and I neve rbelieved a single word of it. Being from, there, well my entire partenal family at least, none of it made sense. Especially when a ceratin Shane Watson exists in the game....

So it would be very interesting to hear your take on his "physicality"

 

[ZCFOutkast]

Contrary to you I loved Manantie Hayward!

 

[sand_man]

There's a scientists' report I read. Should be somewhere in my hard drive. Was based on nutrition among Africans. They went to great lengths to explain how that affected Ngam&Zondeki. How brittle it made them in sports. To date I still don't get why those refences to them were made and I neve rbelieved a single word of it. Being from, there, well my entire partenal family at least, none of it made sense. Especially when a ceratin Shane Watson exists in the game....

So it would be very interesting to hear your take on his "physicality"

Basically malnutrition? I don't understand the link with Shane Watson? He's not from the Eastern Cape?

 

[MickeyD]

There's a scientists' report I read. Should be somewhere in my hard drive. Was based on nutrition among Africans. They went to great lengths to explain how that affected Ngam&Zondeki. How brittle it made them in sports. To date I still don't get why those refences to them were made and I neve rbelieved a single word of it. Being from, there, well my entire partenal family at least, none of it made sense. Especially when a ceratin Shane Watson exists in the game....

So it would be very interesting to hear your take on his "physicality"

Most of us thought it had more to do with a genetic issue rather than nutrition...

 

[MickeyD]

Contrary to you I loved Manantie Hayward!

He's still my mate!

 

[ZCFOutkast]

Basically malnutrition? I don't understand the link with Shane Watson? He's not from the Eastern Cape?

We both know that neither were malnourished. We Xhosas are the biggest Africans in South Africa man.
You should see me. How about Vavi? Lol!

Shane Watson was on the treatment table more than Ngam.

 

[ZCFOutkast]

Most of us thought it had more to do with a genetic issue rather than nutrition...

We can't say Roach is malnourished.

 

[sand_man]

We both know that neither were malnourished. We Xhosas are the biggest Africans in South Africa man.
You should see me. How about Vavi? Lol!

Shane Watson was on the treatment table more than Ngam.

With people growing up in abject poverty they quite often not eating as a youngster should!

Off wiki..

Mfuneko Ngam (born 29 January 1979) is a South African cricketer who played three Tests for South Africa in the 2000–01 season. However, stress fractures in his legs allowed him to play only five first-class matches between January 2001 and October 2003, and after his return he was unable to regain his place in the national team. The cricket news site Cricinfo reported that these injuries may be due to genetic disorders or a dietary deficiency at a young age.[1]

 

[ZCFOutkast]

He's still my mate!

You have the ear of a lot of cricketers - domestic scene & former internationals. You should apply for Hudson's job!

 

[stepper]

Talking about future seamers for SA, what happened to Calvin Savage (KZN) and Corne Dry (FS)? They were our main bowlers in the under 20 world cup in Australia..I think 2012/13

 

[ZCFOutkast]

Talking about future seamers for SA, what happened to Calvin Savage (KZN) and Corne Dry (FS)? They were our main bowlers in the under 20 world cup in Australia..I think 2012/13

I think that's the problem of the HPC. They'e supposed to be grooming them. Corrie van Zyl was in charge before. I don;t remember who is now. Barnes?