Push for mandatory Covid-19 vaccines in South Africa: report

rvZA

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As much as I think vaccines are good. I do not think forcing people to take them is a good idea. Perhaps educating people should be the goal?

Education will not help anymore, we are past the point where people no longer trusts anything coming from the mouth of any scientist, doctor, specialist, or government official. Good leaderhsip around the world no loner exists. This whole thing was approached wrong by all governments.

One of the big reasons for this is that there was no evidence or statistics for what we faced. Everything we know today is still limited, and are still learning about the virus. It is governments who lie to the public and publish fake news.

President Biden was the first to tell people in the US last year not to take the vaccine. Today he cannot understand why the people don't want it.


In SA the same, and likely across the globe. We had influential government officials here too who warned people that the vaccine was from the 'devil' and not to take it.


So, the mess is totally at the feet of governments.

If they want to stand a chance to save the world and getting people to take the vaccine, they need to do only two things:

1. Get the vaccine officially approved. This will allow people to take actions against manufacturers if something goes wrong. The vaccine will also no longer be a trial. This will create more trust. If the vaccines are really safe and really have affects on the virus, there should be no reason for any of them not to approve it formally.

2. Stop with the lies and trying to force this onto people. The world will live on continuous vaccinations as long as the virus is around. Vaccinated people will still get the virus and spread it. A few of those will still die. Travel restrictions and lockdowns will be a permanent fixture.

Once they are honest about all of this, people may start believing in them and start taking the vaccine.
 
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BeerIsNotGood...

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The chances of a mutation developing in vaccinated people is much slimmer than unvaccinated.

And every mutation renders the vaccine less effective against the more vulnerable. Which will then require a booster shot, and this whole thing dragging on even longer. If you want life to get back to normal, just got get the thing.

On that basis alone it should be made mandatory. I'm sure the Google scientists and conspiracy theorists will be along soon to show us why this is not the case...
Normal is not coming back
 

Johnatan56

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President Biden was the first to tell people in the US last year not to take the vaccine. Today he cannot understand why the people don't want it.

You're misquoting that, Biden didn't want Trump to put pressure on the FDA to approve since Trump wanted to get 100m vaccinations in the span of about 3 months. Actually read the article before twisting truths again.
In SA the same, and likely across the globe. We had influential government officials here too who warned people that the vaccine was from the 'devil' and not to take it.

So read what he actually wrote, he said that he doesn't want any vaccines that harm people, the J&J and Pfizer vaccines that are most of South Africa's roll-out, and he's not qualified to make comments on whether a vaccine is good or bad, which is why he got called out on it.
So, the mess is totally at the feet of governments.
More in regards to people like you that keep twisting stuff.
If they want to stand a chance to save the world and getting people to take the vaccine, they need to do only two things:

1. Get the vaccine officially approved. This will allow people to take actions against manufacturers if something goes wrong. The vaccine will also no longer be a trial. This will create more trust. If the vaccines are really safe and really have affects on the virus, there should be no reason for any of them not to approve it formally.
You do know it is officially approved, right? It's not a trial, Phase 3 was finished over a year ago now for Pfizer, J&J, AZ, and Moderna.
If you mean normal approval instead of emergency, that's going to be next month for Pfizer.
2. Stop with the lies and trying to force this onto people. The world will live on continuous vaccinations as long as the virus is around. Vaccinated people will still get the virus and spread it. A few of those will still die. Travel restrictions and lockdowns will be a permanent fixture.
You're an idiot, you still haven't stated what specific lies have been told. You keep saying FDA/CDC etc. all lie, yet haven't provided any proof, rather you take them changing policies based on new evidence as them having lied on previous ones, which is utterly stupid.
Once they are honest about all of this, people may start believing in them and start taking the vaccine.
No, as long as we keep having people like you, issues will keep persisting.
 

John Tempus

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"In these settings, if people choose not to be vaccinated, they should be compelled to undergo testing every three or four days at their own expense,” he said."

With idiotic statements like that how can you take any of these people making the "rules" seriously.

Is that a little temper tantrum using testing every 3-4 days as a requirement, wtf. Anyone with half a brain knows that testing in such short intervals does nothing never mind him ignoring the fact that vaccine users could still test positive every 3-4 days also so why exclude them from the same regular testing if they can carry the exact same virus around with them.

fking idiots making fking idiotic decisions.
 
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John Tempus

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You do know it is officially approved, right? It's not a trial, Phase 3 was finished over a year ago now for Pfizer, J&J, AZ, and Moderna.
If you mean normal approval instead of emergency, that's going to be next month for Pfizer.

Really ? Officially approved on the basis that they are even open to the fact that, 1. It is not a cure, 2. You can still get covid19, 3. You can still carry covid19 and infect others. So other than the small potential drop in yourself getting sick, how does this bs vaccine protect those who have immune deficiencies and unable to get vaccinated and relying on those around them to not spread the virus ?

Do you see the idiocy yet with this vaccine ? Vaccines are meant to protect those who cannot get the vaccine against the virus and so far nothing suggests that this is the case. This vaccine at best only protect the person who takes it and not by much, it does nothing for those who cannot take it or have compromised immune system.

If that is your requirement for official approval and not a botched rollout of placebo juice then you are clearly happy with bs science.
 

Johnatan56

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Really ? Officially approved on the basis that they are even open to the fact that, 1. It is not a cure, 2. You can still get covid19, 3. You can still carry covid19 and infect others.

If that is your requirement for official approval and not a botched rollout of placebo juice then you are clearly happy with bs science.
How dumb are you? None of those address the point I made.

Replying to your red herring:
1. It's a preventative, not a cure, and it definitely improves your chance of surviving/having less harmful cases and reduces hospital stays (something like average of 3 days vs 14 days).
2. Yes, it's not 100%, I never said it was...
3. At a reduced rate, which is the point, not that it completely stops it, you know e.g. measles and mumps are the same, right? https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ead-even-when-were-vaccinated?t=1629715092972
 

John Tempus

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Proper education should come before mandatory measures.

You would think that if they are willing to push for mandatory vaccinations for covid19 then where were these so called health experts during the first decade of the aids epidemic killing WAY more people even to this day than covid19. You would think that if this is all about health and keeping people alive that during the aids epidemic and even to this day they would have mandatory health checks to give you a aids free pass.

Wake up people, this entire sham is not to protect lives. It is par for the course and the world is heading towards totalitarianism.
 

John Tempus

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How dumb are you? None of those address the point I made.

Replying to your red herring:
1. It's a preventative, not a cure, and it definitely improves your chance of surviving/having less harmful cases and reduces hospital stays (something like average of 3 days vs 14 days).
2. Yes, it's not 100%, I never said it was...
3. At a reduced rate, which is the point, not that it completely stops it, you know e.g. measles and mumps are the same, right? https://www.npr.org/sections/health...ead-even-when-were-vaccinated?t=1629715092972

1. It is not preventative, bs. You can still get covid19 and you can still get sick so if you can still get the thing you are meant to be protected against then it is borderline better than a placebo. I think I am safe therefore I am safe. What a joke.
2. The absolute main goal for vaccines is to protect against those who cannot take it for whatever reason. This vaccine does not protect against them from getting infected, not now and not until we have a real vaccine.
3. Measles and mumps if you are vaccinated as a baby(see, this is where it matters the most, proper vaccinations as a baby is infinitely more reliable than any sort of vaccination as adult) you can at WORSE get only once and that is rare. Not at all the same thing as covid19 getting vaccinated you can still get it over and over. I am happy to get vaccinated once there is a real vaccine, the current bs is nothing more than sugar water mixed with tears of hope.

Your mumps/measles argument is not remotely in the same galaxy. Right now it is 100% guaranteed that if you take covid19 vaccine you will still be able to get covid19 if in contact with someone whos got covid19. Mumps/measles on the other hand is a rare situation where a vaccinated person can get it or infect someone else, VERY low , lower than single digit % chance of that ever happening. You are literally comparing a nuke with pebble and then claiming "See, they can both hurt you."

Don't give the idiots new ideas, if this catches on we might be in for forced measles booster shots just because that is the new cool thing to do for OUR protection of course.
 
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Johnatan56

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1. It is not preventative, bs. You can still get covid19 and you can still get sick so if you can still get the thing you are meant to be protected against then it is borderline better than a placebo. I think I am safe therefore I am safe. What a joke.
I did not say it was guaranteed to prevent covid, I said it was a preventative, there is a difference, but you can't seem to grasp it.
2. The absolute main goal for vaccines is to protect against those who cannot take it for whatever reason. This vaccine does not protect against them from getting infected, not now and not until we have a real vaccine.
The main goal of vaccines is to stop you from dying, then from getting seriously ill, then from getting mildly ill, then from getting ill, then stopping it, in that order.
3. Measles and mumps if you are vaccinated as a baby(see, this is where it matters the most, proper vaccinations as a baby is infinitely more reliable than any sort of vaccination as adult) you can at WORSE get only once and that is rare. Not at all the same thing as covid19 getting vaccinated you can still get it over and over. I am happy to get vaccinated once there is a real vaccine, the current bs is nothing more than sugar water mixed with tears of hope.

Your mumps/measles argument is not remotely in the same galaxy. Right now it is 100% guaranteed that if you take covid19 vaccine you will still be able to get covid19 if in contact with someone whos got covid19. Mumps/measles on the other hand is a rare situation where a vaccinated person can get it or infect someone else, VERY low , lower than single digit % chance of that ever happening. You are literally comparing a nuke with pebble and then claiming "See, they can both hurt you."
Did you miss the entire article?
The mumps vaccine, on the other hand, is not so good. The protection rate varies from study to study. But it's usually in the mid-80s.
[...]
With the situation in Ohio, what we'll probably find is that the vaccine protected about 85 percent of the people. So you can see that some people who were vaccinated can acquire the illness — if they're exposed.
[...]
Mumps is not quite as communicable. But with only about 85 percent of a population protected by the vaccine, outbreaks can smolder along and infect just enough people to keep going.
It's basically a case of Covid is way more communicable than mumps is, covid a majority of the time you don't know you're a carrier for a few days until you show symptoms, that's the big problem with covid.
Don't give the idiots new ideas, if this catches on we might be in for forced measles booster shots just because that is the new cool thing to do for OUR protection of course.
A majority of the world has mandatory vaccines for things like measles and mumps: https://ourworldindata.org/childhood-vaccination-policies
1629723674762.png

What drives the introduction of mandatory vaccinations?​

Overall, we found that the occurrence of recent outbreaks is a major factor in the introduction of mandatory vaccination, particularly for high and upper-middle-income countries in Europe. Germany, for example, made measles vaccination mandatory for school and day-care attendance in 2020 following large outbreaks.6 Similarly, Serbia tightened mandatory vaccination laws following a measles outbreak in 2014 to 2015 by introducing harsher penalties.7 Trends of reported cases of measles can be explored in detail here.
South Africa is an exception, not the rule, and a majority of schools wants children to have those vaccines or else they are not allowed to attend.

In regards to measles booster shots, why? There is no current pandemic of measles. In regards to boosters for it, that already exists, just hasn't been made mandatory but highly advised in the US:
Waning effectiveness of early vaccine

Besides people at high risk due to their circumstances, there's only one group of adults that really should talk with their doctor about getting the measles shot, the CDC says.

One of the first measles vaccines used a killed version of virus, and was administered between 1963 and 1967. That vaccine did not provide lasting immunity, and for decades the CDC has urged that generation of folks to undergo vaccination with the better live version of the measles vaccine.

"If you happen to be someone 50 years ago that got this killed measles vaccine, then you'd have to get re-vaccinated with the live virus vaccine," said Dr. Sandra Fryhofer, an internal medicine specialist in Atlanta.

People born in the United States earlier than 1957 are presumed to be immune to measles because the virus is so contagious everyone caught measles in those days.

If there was a large outbreak across South Africa (highly doubtful due to the vaccination rate in South Africa for measles/mumps), I'd expect government to make it mandatory, same as Germany did.
 
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crocopede

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You do know it is officially approved, right? It's not a trial, Phase 3 was finished over a year ago now for Pfizer, J&J, AZ, and Moderna.
If you mean normal approval instead of emergency, that's going to be next month for Pfizer.
You know what he means.
 

Johnatan56

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You know what he means.
What he means and what he says are two different things, and emergency approval is still an approval, it goes through all the same checks with the exception of the final paperwork using summary sections.
It's quite disingenuous to say it's not approved. rvZA loves twisting things, as shown in that post on how he misquoted Biden.

EDIT:
Full approval
 
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crocopede

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What he means and what he says are two different things, and emergency approval is still an approval, it goes through all the same checks with the exception of the final paperwork using summary sections.
It's quite disingenuous to say it's not approved. rvZA loves twisting things, as shown in that post on how he misquoted Biden.

EDIT:
Full approval
Ja ja this is not and episode of suits. The day someone is liable for the vaccine long term side effects is the day many will open up more to the idea that is still against it.

You cannot exactly dictate to people, hey! Take this... but just FYI, you cannot sue the manufacturer or the government or anyone. So if you do get some issue, be it in 2 weeks, or 2 years or 10 years... unfortunately you just have to smile cause you cannot do anything about it because not one single entity is liable for any adverse effects.

And if there is this massive wall between liability and the people subjected to a compound/s then eye brows should be raised.
 

Johnatan56

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Ja ja this is not and episode of suits. The day someone is liable for the vaccine long term side effects is the day many will open up more to the idea that is still against it.

You cannot exactly dictate to people, hey! Take this... but just FYI, you cannot sue the manufacturer or the government or anyone. So if you do get some issue, be it in 2 weeks, or 2 years or 10 years... unfortunately you just have to smile cause you cannot do anything about it because not one single entity is liable for any adverse effects.

And if there is this massive wall between liability and the people subjected to a compound/s then eye brows should be raised.
So you have no clue how any vaccines ever have worked since they've all always been governments setting up no fault compensation funds. It's always been like that since government bodies go through all the data and do a lot of testing to make sure it's fine, and then take responsibility for it as vaccine manufacturers would not be able to take liability, they'd just go bankrupt and everyone would be unable to claim from them.

You can sue the government, that's the point of those funds.

And side effects with vaccines are 99.99% within the first 3 months (based on MIT FAQ), and with Pfizer the mRNA bit is gone/out of your system within a few days, no long-term effects from it are possible (in regards to not have already been measured after billions of doses adminstered). Issue within 2 weeks seems highly unlikely after that many doses and we're about to hit the 2 year mark for most trial groups.
 

krycor

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While I personally have no problem with mandatory vaccines, this process is still many decades away from being finalized. Many laws need to change, such as the National Health Act, which states that no medical procedure or treatment may be administered without a persons' consent, various employment related acts which states employers cannot discriminate against people. Also the Constitution itself. No court can overrule laws or the Constitution. They can order government to start the process in changing these laws and the constitution. Any company or state organ making this mandatory in the meantime will be acting illegally and against the Constitution. But, along with changing these laws and the Constitution, people will lose a lot more freedom and start falling having government ruling their every day lives.

Except that it is allowed for within the constitution as the vaccine impacts you and everyone else. Basically it comes down to societies “rights” vs your “rights”. Worse case you will be sidelined in every social gathering from malls, public transit, etc to even jobs.

Sure this will be “tested” and likely come out in favor of the mandatory rule.. so good luck to people who refuse to get vaccinated.

You will find globally it’s hard to find a new home too. It’s kinda like taxes.. but hey people try their luck with that too. And we will see, as we do with everything in this country.. people will go to another country and get vaccinated. SA has hypocrites galore.
 

crocopede

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So you have no clue how any vaccines ever have worked since they've all always been governments setting up no fault compensation funds. It's always been like that since government bodies go through all the data and do a lot of testing to make sure it's fine, and then take responsibility for it as vaccine manufacturers would not be able to take liability, they'd just go bankrupt and everyone would be unable to claim from them.

You can sue the government, that's the point of those funds.

And side effects with vaccines are 99.99% within the first 3 months (based on MIT FAQ), and with Pfizer the mRNA bit is gone/out of your system within a few days, no long-term effects from it are possible (in regards to not have already been measured after billions of doses adminstered). Issue within 2 weeks seems highly unlikely after that many doses and we're about to hit the 2 year mark for most trial groups.
And yet some diseases take up to 10 years to detect.
If said disease was introduced now... it will be detected 10 years from now with no way to prove it was caused by the vaccine.

I guess you will have some argument for that also. Its impossible or something in those lines.
 

LCBXX

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Forcing citizens into anything has worked out brilliantly in the past. Time to try it again.
 
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