Racial Classification

[Bageloo]

Just for the record: Capitalism is NOT a free market! It is a society where the big corporates rule! And unfortunately we have to try and live with it...

Good point.\
Without regulation it becomes an exploitative system...that benefits only those with the means of production...

 

[blonde one]

If they are black owned then they are 100% previously diadvantaged...
Can you explain again how is getting a black partner suffering ?
Don't both parties benefit?

I'm in the same position as ettubrute

I am running a one-man company, and do not have enough work to sustain myself and a partner. So who is supposed to pay this partner? Is the government going to do it? Or am I supposed to get a "black" partner who is just a name on the letter head? Thus committing fraud?

I have gone the whole legal route regarding BEE partnership and shares - not so that I could maintain the 'privelege' that I had under apartheid but so that I could continue to survive and earn a living! My business is now on the verge of closing as a result of the business being unable to sustain a partnership. That is suffering to me, my business and my partner so you see in my case nobody has benefitted!

 

[Bageloo]

You are just showing your own lack of thought on this subject. There is one good reason that the MTN initiative in particular is wrong that has nothing to with race and that is because it only benefits those who have already benefited from empowerment. If you can afford to scrape together two grand on short notice to buy shares then you are no worse off than I am so why do you need uplifting? What about poor people for whom two thousand rand is a huge sum? Those are the ones who need uplifting.
I'm not saying that middle class blacks shouldn't be given special opportunities to create wealth which benefits everyone by creating jobs for people who don't have any, but the MTN fiasco is just giving money to people who are already better off than the majority of people.



Yes that group is middle to upper class blacks who are already empowered and are now so blinded by their own greed and sense of entitlement that they couldn't give a flying fcck that the free wealth being handed to them should be going towards uplifting and empowering people who desperately need it.

To add insult to injury you label anyone who questions this sick scenario as racist.

I have no problem with BEE. The MTN initiative and others of its kind are not about empowerment its all about making the rich blacks richer, which would be fine if the poor masses had been raised to your economic level and it was just a case of lifting some blacks into the top five percent.

Look at the stats for participation of black people in the JSE. This MTN deal provides a foot in the door for most black people.

There are so many levels of other initiatives aimed at getting poor people participating in the economy. Most of the poor people were 'unbankable' in the past but now they have options like Mzansi Acount. Now they can save and hopefully would have R2000 saved to buy shares later.
This redistribution should and is happening at all levels and it's not just the black elit that are benefitting. I'm not an elite but I will spare some money for those shares...the discount only makes it more attractive and since it's only open to blacks it will improve the number of blacks in the JSE. Since blacks make up the majority in the country it makes absolute sense that they are encourage to get involved in the country's economy. Without their participation the country is doomed.

 

[GavinMannion]

Then white people should not see it as suffering as oppotunities are open to all. It is not a farce, it just proves that the whites that are willing to accept the principles of BEE stand to benefit just as much.

I am a full blown capitalist and as such am happy to make a plan around BEE... however BEE is not something I want my children to deal with...

I don't think BEE/AA is going to assist in the creation of a free market but anyway. Gavin gave an example of blatantly racist practice that should clearly be stopped and made illegal, what I'd advocate is true equality where people are considered on their merits rather than their skin colour.

I fully agree, it is coming time now that the young black people leaving school never suffered under Apartheid, so BEE or AA should no longer apply to them

Good point.\
Without regulation it becomes an exploitative system...that benefits only those with the means of production...

to much regulation stifles creativity and entrepreneurship...

If BEE has to survive it should not apply to companies less than 100 people....

 

[Nick333]

Look at the stats for participation of black people in the JSE. This MTN deal provides a foot in the door for most black people.

There are so many levels of other initiatives aimed at getting poor people participating in the economy. Most of the poor people were 'unbankable' in the past but now they have options like Mzansi Acount. Now they can save and hopefully would have R2000 saved to buy shares later.
This redistribution should and is happening at all levels and it's not just the black elit that are benefitting. I'm not an elite but I will spare some money for those shares...the discount only makes it more attractive and since it's only open to blacks it will improve the number of blacks in the JSE. Since blacks make up the majority in the country it makes absolute sense that they are encourage to get involved in the country's economy. Without their participation the country is doomed.

What I'm saying is that before you worry about black participation in the JSE worry about black participation in the economy beyond buying the barest of necessities with a handful of coppers gathered by begging.

But you are an educated black South African the ANC has to put a bit more thought into conning you into thinking they will sort this country out over night. Poor blacks are uneducated, the ANC only have to make promises and remind them of the struggle to get their vote.

 

[feo]

Just to change it up a bit in this thread, here's a clip from the Youtube CNN debates. The question posed is "Should African Americans be given reparations for slavery?" I think this is pretty much the US equivalent of what we're debating right here, so it's worth a look.

http://www.youtube.com/debates#qa_2g2K6Z97VMk

Scroll down to Question 5 to watch the responses.

EDIT. You can even continue and watch Q6 and Q7, both race related.

 

[Bageloo]

What I'm saying is that before you worry about black participation in the JSE worry about black participation in the economy beyond buying the barest of necessities with a handful of coppers gathered by begging.

But you are an educated black South African the ANC has to put a bit more thought into conning you into thinking they will sort this country out over night. Poor blacks are uneducated, the ANC only have to make promises and remind them of the struggle to get their vote.

No one can sort this country overnight. The damage done is so huge that it will take decades.
Looking at the economic growth trends over the past thirty years, it is very clear to see that economic change does not happen over night. The country's econmy started negative growth in the late 70's until the 90's when it started stagnating only now in th early 2000's that it has started growing positively again. The good thing is that this trend is set to continue for at least another decade. If you look at proposed gvt and private sector investment coming up in the following years you'll realise that this country is on the right track economically. However there are real challenges like crime and skills shortages, that might slow down the growth...
With econmic growth and public and private sector investment comes jobs for the unemployed and upliftment for the poor....
If you want to judge the current policies then be fair and judge them based on the economic indicators i.e. strength of the currency, levels of interest rates, GDP growth, etc...

 

[Alan]

Yikes check the options Typical Dems playing on peoples differences

As for option 5 what a fscked up question. America already has institutionalised racism aka AA so what more do some people want . Obama was more on the mark(reminds me of the black supreme court judge who voted against AA) than those other two chums.

Kucinich is always good for a laugh though

 

[feo]

Yikes check the options Typical Dems playing on peoples differences

As for option 5 what a fscked up question. America already has institutionalised racism aka AA so what more do some people want . Obama was more on the mark(reminds me of the black supreme court judge who voted against AA) than those other two chums.

Kucinich is always good for a laugh though

Edwards looks like the kind of candidate that'll say anything just to get votes. Agree with you that Obama had the best reply.

It's kinda sad that I enjoy American politics more than SA politics. :/

 

[Nick333]

No one can sort this country overnight the damage done is so huge that it will take decades.
Looking at the economic growth trends over the past thirty years, it is very clear to see that economic change does not happen over night. The country's econmy started negative growth in the late 70's until the 90's when it started stagnating only now in th early 2000's that it has started growing positively again. The good thing is that this trend is set to continue for at least another decade. If you look at proposed gvt and private sector investment coming up in the following years you'll realise that this country is on the right track economically. However there are real challenges like crime and skills shortages, that might slow down the growth...
With econmic growth and public and private sector investment comes jobs for the unemployed and upliftment for the poor....
If you want to judge the current policies then be fair and judge them based on the economic indicators i.e. strength of the currency, levels of interest rates, GDP growth, etc...

Well its a sad fact that economic growth in this country takes a hell of a long time to filter down to the poor. In fact here it seems to be making things worse for the poor because the booming economy is driving up property prices and making it impossible for those who don't benefit from BEE to participate in that aspect of the economy. How is this thriving economy affecting job creation? Minimally at best I would say.

Real BEE would be encouraging black people of all classes to actively participate in the growth of the economy by offering easier access to capital for the purpose of creating jobs.

The millions being used to encourage black people, who can already afford it, to participate in the JSE could be better utilized and recycled through the economy by offering microcredit to those who could use it to start small business and grow the economy thereby taking the pressure off the existing economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit

 

[Alan]

Edwards looks like the kind of candidate that'll say anything just to get votes. Agree with you that Obama had the best reply.

Edwards reminds me of Bill Clinton

It's kinda sad that I enjoy American politics more than SA politics. :/

Same here

 

[Bageloo]

Well its a sad fact that economic growth in this country takes a hell of a long time to filter down to the poor. In fact here it seems to be making things worse for the poor because the booming economy is driving up property prices and making it impossible for those who don't benefit from BEE to participate in that aspect of the economy. How is this thriving economy affecting job creation? Minimally at best I would say.

Real BEE would be encouraging black people of all classes to actively participate in the growth of the economy by offering easier access to capital for the purpose of creating jobs.
The millions being used to encourage black people, who can already afford it, to participate in the JSE could be better utilized and recycled through the economy by offering microcredit to those who could use it to start small business and grow the economy thereby taking the pressure off the existing economy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microcredit

Have you ever heard of UMSOBOMVU youth fund...? There are numerous other avenues that make it easier to obtain funding for enterpreneurial purposes. Like I said before, this is a multi-prongued attack where each level is no less important than the other.

The GVT investment in infrastructure projects has only just started with things like GAUTRAIN and 2010.
Thre will be more projects like this in the future...but there had to be some growth before such projects could be be implemented. The treasury only had a budget supplus for the very first time this year. Such a supplus means more to spent on investment projects.

 

[Nick333]

. Like I said before, this is a multi-prongued attack where each level is no less important than the other.

Do you honestly think that middle class peoples participation in the JSE is equally important as uplifting people whose shacks are flooded when it rains and who have to dig through other peoples rubbish to find food?

 

[ettubrute]

The GVT investment in infrastructure projects has only just started with things like GAUTRAIN and 2010.

Jikes! Gautrain! Worst waste of money ever! Money could have been used far better... (that's my opinion on it! )

Explanation: Just for the record, why didn't they rather invest in a minibus taxi kind of project, run by the government? Many more jobs, better transport, better connections to where you actually want to go, etc... for half the money they could run a fleet of approximately 250 minibuses and make the fare zero!

 

[feo]

Jikes! Gautrain! Worst waste of money ever! Money could have been used far better... (that's my opinion on it! )

If I had R1 for every time I heard that...

 

[Alan]

Jikes! Gautrain! Worst waste of money ever! Money could have been used far better... (that's my opinion on it! )

Yeah and those stadiums are going to be of great use after the WC

 

[lsuacner]

Just to change it up a bit in this thread, here's a clip from the Youtube CNN debates. The question posed is "Should African Americans be given reparations for slavery?" I think this is pretty much the US equivalent of what we're debating right here, so it's worth a look.

http://www.youtube.com/debates#qa_2g2K6Z97VMk

Scroll down to Question 5 to watch the responses.

EDIT. You can even continue and watch Q6 and Q7, both race related.

Clinton had my vote, though Obama has it now. Obviously he realises the only way to advance people who were prejudiced is through education. If only RSA would come to that realisation.

 

[feo]

Clinton had my vote, though Obama has it now. Obviously he realises the only way to advance people who were prejudiced is through education. If only RSA would come to that realisation.

QFT

In all my posts, I say you gotta educate people and that's the ONLY way things will get levelled out.

It's such a sad pity that our candidates here in SA are nowhere near the level of intellect that the US candidates are. When I think of SA politicians, "one tracked mind" is the common trait that springs to mind.

EDIT. Nice sig lsuacner.

 

[Bageloo]

Jikes! Gautrain! Worst waste of money ever! Money could have been used far better... (that's my opinion on it! )

Explanation: Just for the record, why didn't they rather invest in a minibus taxi kind of project, run by the government? Many more jobs, better transport, better connections to where you actually want to go, etc... for half the money they could run a fleet of approximately 250 minibuses and make the fare zero!

pollution, congestion, oil price etc learn to think out of the box dude...

 

[Bageloo]

Yeah and those stadiums are going to be of great use after the WC

Yes, like all stadiums that are of great use today...