Ramaphosa authorises SANDF call-up to combat illegal miners

wingnut771 said:
That's why I asked for the amounts spent now vs back then in dollar value and not "% of GDP".
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Percentage of GDP and/or percentage of total budget is the only way to determine how each regime prioritised defence spending.

But seeing as you asked, defence spend in 1977 budget year was USD 2.07 Bn.

Using the same table, in FY 2021 defence spending was USD 3,27 Bn.
 
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vigras rojara said:
Percentage of GDP and/or percentage of total budget is the only way to determine how each regime prioritised defence spending.

But seeing as you asked, defence spend in 1977 budget year was USD 2.07 Bn.

Using the same table, in FY 2021 defence spending was USD 3,27 Bn.
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So that proves my point. 1977 SADF would wipe 2021 SANDF off the map because even though SANDF has 60% more cash, everything is broken and old.
 
wingnut771 said:
So that proves my point. 1977 SADF would wipe 2021 SANDF off the map because even though SANDF has 60% more cash, everything is broken and old.
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60% more cash?

Have you not heard of the concepts of inflation and time value of money?

USD 2 billion in 1977 is the equivalent of around USD 10 billion today. So the current SANDF budget is not even a third of what it was.
 
UB40 said:
Agree, SADF was a force to be reckoned with. The SANDF is pathetic
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I don't think the SADF was ever a "force to be reckoned with".
Apartheid SA weren't very successful as far as I'm concerned.
They fought a protracted border war and the outcome was a complete loss of their original objectives.
At best the propaganda machine was hard at work back then convincing the safers of the time of how successful, incredible, etc. everyone involved was.

Realistically wars are incredible expensive, not just financially, in every respect, so if the outcomes are divisive, an enormous blunder was made.
It is exactly why the US is criticized for every conflict since WW2, especially Vietnam and Afghanistan.
 
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Gnome said:
I don't think the SADF was ever a "force to be reckoned with".
Apartheid SA weren't very successful as far as I'm concerned.
They fought a protracted border war and the outcome was a complete loss of their original objectives.
At best the propaganda machine was hard at work back then convincing the safers of the time of how successful, incredible, etc. everyone involved was.

Realistically wars are incredible expensive, not just financially, in every respect, so if the outcomes are decisive, an enormous blunder was made.
It is exactly why the US is criticized for every conflict since WW2, especially Vietnam and Afghanistan.
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Wouldn't we be speaking cuban russian then if they weren't successful?
 
TheChamp said:
It is sadly a political gimmick just in time for the election, if they were serious they would be giving the lowlifes time to get out then promptly dump some decent amount of concrete in there, followed by a good amount of sand.

They allowed this problem to happen and now they are pretending to solve it, our government is the main driver behind the xenophobia, you can never create such an untenable situation in a country full of poor people and expect things to just go smoothly.
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I agree and add that I'm guessing the "costs" associated with SANDF deployment benefit some cadre connected catering firm or similar.

I'm guessing that the problem with the "concrete", aside from stingy mining companies not wanting to incur costs is that the zama zamas are are resourceful burrowers and either "mine" through it or around it. Maybe a good option would be to pump the slimes back underground. Block the stopes and reduce the risk of mining induced "earthquakes. BUT, costly. environmentally challenging and technically difficult I also guess.
 
vigras rojara said:
Agreed, but then in 1977 military spending was 5% of GDP.

In 2022, it was 0.74% of GDP. So not really comparable.
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I agree that the spending is less, but it is far more complex than that. The officer / troop ratio in the SANDF is nowhere that it was in the SADF, as is the average age of combatants, plus the ratio of soldiers that are fit to serve vs those that aren't (the SANDF is filled with people that are unfit for duty, a result of cadre deployment). And all attempts to maintain what used to be world class infrastructure (1 Military Hospital is a perfect example) is stymied through graft, corruption and theft.
 
Oldfut said:
I agree and add that I'm guessing the "costs" associated with SANDF deployment benefit some cadre connected catering firm or similar.

I'm guessing that the problem with the "concrete", aside from stingy mining companies not wanting to incur costs is that the zama zamas are are resourceful burrowers and either "mine" through it or around it. Maybe a good option would be to pump the slimes back underground. Block the stopes and reduce the risk of mining induced "earthquakes. BUT, costly. environmentally challenging and technically difficult I also guess.
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DMR mapped and capped off the shafts in the area near where I stay with truckloads of concrete...they had armed security there 24/7 and the job was completed...But the Zamas just dug new holes next to the capped shafts once everyone had gone....

Maybe the ony way is to fully collapse these tunnels going in as deep as possible with explosives but I doubt that can be done realistically...
 
Hanno Labuschagne said:
Ramaphosa authorises SANDF call-up to combat illegal miners

South African President Cyril Ramaphosa authorised the deployment of 3,300 soldiers in support of police efforts to curb illegal mining, his office said in a statement on Thursday.

The deployment will run until 28 April 2024, and Parliament’s defence committee is expected to approve the use of the army in the coming weeks.

[Bloomberg]
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The Zama Zamas is going to eat our brave SANDF for breakfast!
 
Gnome said:
I don't think the SADF was ever a "force to be reckoned with".
Apartheid SA weren't very successful as far as I'm concerned.
They fought a protracted border war and the outcome was a complete loss of their original objectives.
At best the propaganda machine was hard at work back then convincing the safers of the time of how successful, incredible, etc. everyone involved was.

Realistically wars are incredible expensive, not just financially, in every respect, so if the outcomes are divisive, an enormous blunder was made.
It is exactly why the US is criticized for every conflict since WW2, especially Vietnam and Afghanistan.
Click to expand...
I am in no way saying the SADF could have beaten the All Blacks. My point is the SADF will kick the SANDF in their ****
 
Some illegal miners in Sekhukhune, Limpopo, are not happy about the deployment of soldiers to illegal mining areas in the country.

They say they are forced into illegal mining due to government’s delay in regulating artisanal mining.

In September last year, Parliament’s Portfolio Committee on Mining and Mineral Resources visited the areas and acknowledged that there was a need to fast-track the issuing of mining licences to locals.

Over 3 000 soldiers were deployed to illegal mining hotspots last month.

Some illegal miners in Sekhukhune say the deployment will negatively affect their livelihood.

www.sabcnews.com

Illegal miners unhappy with army deployment - SABC News - Breaking news, special reports, world, business, sport coverage of all South African current events. Africa's news leader.

Over 3 000 soldiers were deployed to illegal mining hotspots.
www.sabcnews.com www.sabcnews.com

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RonSwanson said:
I agree that the spending is less, but it is far more complex than that. The officer / troop ratio in the SANDF is nowhere that it was in the SADF, as is the average age of combatants, plus the ratio of soldiers that are fit to serve vs those that aren't (the SANDF is filled with people that are unfit for duty, a result of cadre deployment). And all attempts to maintain what used to be world class infrastructure (1 Military Hospital is a perfect example) is stymied through graft, corruption and theft.
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For sure, I'm certainly not of the opinion that the existing budget is being efficiently utilised, just that it is way less than it was back then, so we actually agree on something for once...
 
vigras rojara said:
For sure, I'm certainly not of the opinion that the existing budget is being efficiently utilised, just that it is way less than it was back then, so we actually agree on something for once...
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There is nothing that opens the purse strings quicker than a war. The US knows this all too well, and they profit extensively from it.
 
Jam Sandwich said:
DMR mapped and capped off the shafts in the area near where I stay with truckloads of concrete...they had armed security there 24/7 and the job was completed...But the Zamas just dug new holes next to the capped shafts once everyone had gone....

Maybe the ony way is to fully collapse these tunnels going in as deep as possible with explosives but I doubt that can be done realistically...
Click to expand...
Are these active mines or closed down mines these zama zamas are at?
 
wingnut771 said:
Are these active mines or closed down mines these zama zamas are at?
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Old mines.....30 years ago there was even an old stamp from Sheffield and those coco pans etc...all gone now of course...One of the biggest problems I see though is that they have pretty much destroyed the nearby river by diverting it and using whatever chemicals they use and allowing that to get into the water...
 
Jam Sandwich said:
Old mines.....30 years ago there was even an old stamp from Sheffield and those coco pans etc...all gone now of course...One of the biggest problems I see though is that they have pretty much destroyed the nearby river by diverting it and using whatever chemicals they use and allowing that to get into the water...
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So the problem isn't that they're "stealing" the gold but polluting the environment?
 
wingnut771 said:
So the problem isn't that they're "stealing" the gold but polluting the environment?
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I dont really think there is too much gold in this area...but ja...we have the pollution problem and then naturally the crime issue...theft from local farms and attacks on a few of the locals so far. Every so often SAPS and the local security guys go out with drones and dogs but as soon as they are gone then these guys are back...
 
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