Ramaphosa gives green light for army to go into Cape's gang-infested areas

JustAsk

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But they're under SAPS command, aren't they? They operate under ordinary civilian law.
No. Once the command is given, the law changes.
A soldier always operates under millitary law, as a soldier (law and order). A soldier doing humanitarian duties like repairing a dam is under civil law.
Millitary law trumps civil law, which is trumped by martial law.
 

Grant

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No. Once the command is given, the law changes.
A soldier always operates under millitary law, as a soldier (law and order). A soldier doing humanitarian duties like repairing a dam is under civil law.
Millitary law trumps civil law, which is trumped by martial law.
martial law has to be declared by the president before it trumps civil law.
in the current situation the military can only act in a supportive manner to saps - much like the 80s.
there are severe restrictions in place apropos engaging with the civilian population.
i have no doubt gang leaders are already in consultation with their legal counsel on this in order to hedge their bets
 

Fulcrum29

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https://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/...e-army-will-be-deployed-in-cape-town-20190712

This is where the army will be deployed in Cape Town
The South African National Defence Force (SANDF) will help the police contain gangsterism in the Western Cape's 10 police precincts with the highest attempted murder rates.

Police Minister Bheki Cele announced on Thursday in his budget speech that President Cyril Ramaphosa had given the go-ahead for soldiers to enter gang-infested areas on the Cape Flats.

The SANDF's deployment in these areas will last three months.

The 10 precincts identified by Cele are:

- Bishop Lavis;
- Mitchells Plain;
- Delft;
- Elsies River;
- Nyanga;
- Khayelitsha;
- Mfuleni;
- Philippi;
- Kraaifontein; and
- Manenberg.

Combined, the 10 areas contributed to 42% of attempted murders in the province.

...

'Led and commanded' by police

Section 201(2)(a) of the Constitution provides that only the president may authorise the employment of the defence force, in cooperation with the police.

National police commissioner General Khehla Sitole said the operation would be "led and commanded" by the police.

They will focus on the following:

- Troops for cordon and search, strong points in hot spots, observation, foot and vehicle patrols;
- Air support for troops and identification of substance manufacturing labs; and
- Any other operations that may be determined from time to time.
The SANDF is then by large deployed for recon and for security checkpoint purposes, and for case use operations.
 

Fulcrum29

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No. Once the command is given, the law changes.
A soldier always operates under millitary law, as a soldier (law and order). A soldier doing humanitarian duties like repairing a dam is under civil law.
Millitary law trumps civil law, which is trumped by martial law.
This is a good read which may apply to the current circumstances,

https://mg.co.za/article/2017-10-11...p-fight-crime-has-implications-on-many-levels

Police Minister's request that SANDF help fight crime has implications on many levels
On Tuesday night, Police Minister Fikile Mbalula released a statement saying that he has requested the assistance of the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) to help fight high levels of crime in Gauteng and Cape Town. Is it legal for the army to stand in for the police? Under what circumstances is it allowed and what are the risks? Dr Johan Burger, senior researcher in the Crime and Justice Programme at the Institute for Security Studies, explains.

In any democracy deploying the army to police the citizenry is something that you want to postpone for as long as possible. The army isn’t normally trained for such an exercise and its doctrine, training and authority structures aren’t suited to the situation.
Army members are trained to go to war. There is therefore always the danger that when soldiers are deployed in communities for long periods of time that there will be certain violations.

Army members can, for instance, find themselves in a situation where they have to stand in as proxies for the police, in which case they have to apply police rules such as the use of minimum force and following the correct procedure during an arrest.

While they are supposed to receive training on police rules and conduct before they go into a community, they may find themselves in a situation where they do not have the experience to handle it correctly.

They are also trained to use machine guns, not pistols, so you want to avoid a shootout at all costs.

The other danger is that when you deploy a whole lot of young men into a community where there are young women, we’ve seen in other places in Africa that it doesn’t take long for complaints to surface. It’s not an ideal situation.

However, the Constitution and Defence Act make provision for the deployment of the SANDF to support the South African Police Service (SAPS) when deemed necessary. There are strict prerequisites for this.

The SANDF may only be deployed by the president, who has to inform Parliament and give detailed instructions for the deployment. This includes how many soldiers will be deployed, how long they will be deployed, when exactly the deployments starts in which areas precisely and what their responsibilities will be.

It’s important to understand that the army can’t replace the police or do their job. The police continues to do its job. Rather, army members are deployed to bring calm and stability to areas that’s seen high levels of violence and crime.

The advantage of having the army in such an area is that is creates space for the police to concentrate on investigating the prevailing crime and violence. When the police have to protect the community, there is very little time for actual investigations.

Due to the nature of their structures, their weapons and vehicles, the army comes with a degree of authority, which brings calm and peace of mind to people in unstable environments. So the psychological advantages are also important.

However, the army is not the solution to the problem. They can at best protect an area for a certain period of time. The police must use that time to do proper investigations to track down the criminals responsible for the violence, arrest them and make sure they are tried in court.

The type of violence we’re seeing as a result of gangs in Cape Town, for example, is not the result of shortcomings in policing in the area, but other underlying factors such as poverty and unemployment. There are often also political factors at play. The relevant state departments and local authorities must come to the party and provide basic infrastructure and services that speak to the local communities’ unhappiness.

The army will be present for months at most and then things go back to normal. In this time the police and other departments have to sort out the real problems.
 

Fulcrum29

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I don't believe this has changed? I could only find the Defence Bill and don't have the time to go through the Defence Act.

SOUTH AFRICAN NATIONAL DEFENCE UNION POLICING POWERS FOR THE SANDF

1) In terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa and the Defence Act (Act 44 of 1957), members of the South African National Defence Force can be utilised in the support of the South African Police Services.

2) SANDU has no objection to the utilisation of members of the SANDF in the role of supporting the SAPS. Certain key elements however must be highlighted to ensure that the members of the SANDF are adequately remunerated and protected whilst being utilised in this capacity:

a) the Act must provide for a comprehensive mandate in terms of the role and functions of the SANDF and also the legal aspects to protect soldiers whilst acting in the role of supporting the SAPS.

b) soldiers are to fall under their own command and control, and not under the command and control of the SAPS.

c) soldiers must be adequately trained in all the policing aspects, concerning the role and functions of the SANDF during SAPS support and their rights as far as legal responsibilities and protection is of utmost importance.

d) the image of soldiers must at all times maintain that of soldiers. Soldiers must not be seen as an extension of the SAPS, but rather as an autonomous force in support of the SAPS.

e) allowances must be negotiated and be made available to soldiers for this over-and-above responsibility, whilst being utilised in a supporting role to the SAPS.

f) soldiers must be utilised according to SANDF organisational structures while supporting the SAPS and then at the very least within the strength denominations of sections.

g) when soldiers are utilised in a supporting role to the SAPS, the expenses of such operations must be additionally budgeted for or be credited to the SAPS budget and not to the budget of the SANDF or their associates.

3) these inputs, we believe, will enable the Committee in compiling a workable document.

NATIONAL SECRETARY: SANDU (COR VAN NIEKERK)
 

ForceFate

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I don't believe this has changed? I could only find the Defence Bill and don't have the time to go through the Defence Act.
I once read an article from defenceweb where all of this was explained comprehensively. I may have saved it on my home pc. I'll see if I can find it.
 

ambroseg1

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So I havent been following all the comments in this thread so not sure if it had been asked before, but I just read an article about the overnight raids and people being dragged out of their beds and their doors kicked in.

So all the necessary search warrants are in place for this right? Or are the rights of citizens suspended in situations like this?
 

ForceFate

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So I havent been following all the comments in this thread so not sure if it had been asked before, but I just read an article about the overnight raids and people being dragged out of their beds and their doors kicked in.

So all the necessary search warrants are in place for this right? Or are the rights of citizens suspended in situations like this?
That must have been the police. SANDF hasn't been deployed yet afaik
 

surface

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You represent everyone in your metro? OK then.
Based on zizo911's post, no it's way different from what I face daily.
Situation in midrand is exactly like cape flats. Exactly identical to pretoria, boksburg where I have clients. They send me 2 gunmen that accompany me to their premises. We have SANDF posted in our streets and it is like Syria here. I hope that clarified the horrendous situation clearly.
 

ForceFate

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Situation in midrand is exactly like cape flats. Exactly identical to pretoria, boksburg where I have clients. They send me 2 gunmen that accompany me to their premises. We have SANDF posted in our streets and it is like Syria here. I hope that clarified the horrendous situation clearly.
I woke up to sound of endless shooting this morning at 3am. Peered through the window and saw a whole army battalion walk past
 
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