Ramaphosa signs controversial debt-relief bill into law

ToxicBunny

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It says "unsecured loans" - surely this includes loan sharks as well? Apart from the official loan sharks like wonga etc? And if it is not listed, how would govt clear it?
Unsecured loans are things like overdraft from the banks, personal loans from banks, short term credit from registered providers.

The government can't clear loan shark debt.... they don't know about it and the loan sharks would ignore them anyway.
 

surface

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Although, this will definitely create similar expectations in future, I would rather they do this ONCE. They can stop bailing out SAA, SABC and there should be enough money to bail out these poor people instead.
 

SeRpEnT

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I am sure Moody's and other agencies are taking note. Another step closer to junk status...
 

ToxicBunny

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Although, this will definitely create similar expectations in future, I would rather they do this ONCE. They can stop bailing out SAA, SABC and there should be enough money to bail out these poor people instead.
They've done something similar at least once before if memory serves me correctly... At least they wiped off all adverse listings at one point...
 

daveza

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The bill provides for the extinguishing of the debt of heavily indebted consumers who earn a gross monthly income of no more than R7,500; have unsecured debt amounting to R50,000;
So if you earn R7600 and have debt of R50,100 it's k4k and betaal time.
 

dualmeister

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Wow, just when you think that there is no more fuel to throw on the fire ....

BOOM!
 

maumau

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This always sounds like a terrible generalisation when I post this... but I'm gonna say it again...

Based on my own personal observations of our own staff, most of these people are living beyond their means.
They have Edgars accounts and buy shoes and clothes that I MYSELF would never buy.
Leather Jackets, Fancy boots, designer jeans (could be fake), jewellery, and gadgets... that I myself avoid as over-priced and excessive.

And until that culture of visual excess stops, there is going to remain a debt problem for many of these people.
........... and why would anyone have the option to buy food on budget??
 

daveza

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R20 billion worth of goods free, someone takes a R20 billion knock.

That's more than enough to destroy some businesses and more workers jobs.
 

JustAsk

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But if you earn less that 7.5 how would you have managed to rack up 50k in debt?
Easy. Just by paying your debt on time, they keep getting sms's like:
"Congratulations, your credit limit has been increased to R70 000."

Those farmworkers that got their Lewis Stores debt wiped by the court, earned less than half of 7.5k but could buy for more than 50k.
 

JustAsk

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This always sounds like a terrible generalisation when I post this... but I'm gonna say it again...

Based on my own personal observations of our own staff, most of these people are living beyond their means.
They have Edgars accounts and buy shoes and clothes that I MYSELF would never buy.
Leather Jackets, Fancy boots, designer jeans (could be fake), jewellery, and gadgets... that I myself avoid as over-priced and excessive.

And until that culture of visual excess stops, there is going to remain a debt problem for many of these people.
Most working people live beyond their means....the one buys fancy boots and leather jackets, the other buys R10 000 graphics cards and 4k tv's. It's not a blue color problem, its universal.

And of course there is also unforseen circumstances. The average middle class person is just 3 paychecks away from poverty
 

ToxicBunny

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Most working people live beyond their means....the one buy fancy boots and leather jacker, the other buys R10 000 graphics cards and 4k tv's. It's not a blue color problem, its universal.
The consequences are vastly different though...

The higher earners can generally afford to pay off the debt that is generated beyond their means (unless they are retarded and go too far).... its a hell of a lot easier for a low earner to go too far with debt and they don't end up with much at that level of debt anyway.
 

daveza

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The consequences are vastly different though...

The higher earners can generally afford to pay off the debt that is generated beyond their means (unless they are retarded and go too far).... its a hell of a lot easier for a low earner to go too far with debt and they don't end up with much at that level of debt anyway.
The rich can live beyond their means but have to pay their debts, the poor who live beyond their means get the debt written off... I understand all the arguments but are we not supposed to all be equal before the law ?
 

ToxicBunny

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The rich can live beyond their means but have to pay their debts, the poor who live beyond their means get the debt written off... I understand all the arguments but are we not supposed to all be equal before the law ?
Yeah, of course we are... but you can't be nasty to the poor people.

Personally, I'm not 100% against this idea of assisting people who are overindebted.... but there needs to be consequences. I would have more gone to the point of making the debt review process free and simple for people who are in that position, so that they can work out a payment plan for the existing debt and be barred from generating new debt until that process is complete.
 

JustAsk

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The consequences are vastly different though...
That's true. the higher earner has a lot more to loose. The creditor will come after him simply because he/she owns more
The higher earners can generally afford to pay off the debt that is generated beyond their means (unless they are retarded and go too far).... its a hell of a lot easier for a low earner to go too far with debt and they don't end up with much at that level of debt anyway.
That is not true. Higher debt escalate quicker.

Why would you reserve an assumption "unless they are retarded and go too far" for the higher earner and not for the other?
 

ToxicBunny

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That's true. the higher earner has a lot more to loose. The creditor will come after him simply because he/she owns more

That is not true. Higher debt escalate quicker.

Why would you reserve an assumption "unless they are retarded and go too far" for the higher earner and not for the other?
Because for a higher earner to go too far is more difficult than for a low earner...

Someone clearing R50k per month can generate R300k debt and still survive relatively ok...

Someone clearing R5k per month can't generate much more than R10k in debt and be in over their heads and still try to survive....
 
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