Ramaphosa to VF Plus leader Groenewald: BEE is here to stay

TEXTILE GUY

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Removing BEE wouldn’t unite the nation, it would cause an even greater divide. There would be even more unemployed black youth.
Well, I dont know, and maybe you are right.

What I do know, is how it affected me personally.
All I wanted, was to work in my own field of expertise, in my home country.
I can find empathy with people who are not employed for a reason solely related to race or nationality. Its is extremely painful.

Today, I am adding value to another countries economy, but it will never be my home per se.
 

Lupus

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That’s not how BEE works but you know that already.
Really? Please could you tell that to most large corporate HR, cause that's exactly what they seem to think it is.
 

abzo

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Really? Please could you tell that to most large corporate HR, cause that's exactly what they seem to think it is.
I guess some people will consider any black candidate to be incompetent.
 

Lupus

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I guess some people will consider any black candidate to be incompetent.
Nope I've been involved in the hiring process at a few places, we basically have to hire what we're told, not what we need.
 

abzo

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Nope I've been involved in the hiring process at a few places, we basically have to hire what we're told, not what we need.
Then they’re implementing it incorrectly.
I can’t believe it needs to be said but BEE is about hiring the best black candidate.

A qualified white candidate will and should be hired over an unqualified black candidate even with BEE.

The way some carry on here makes it seem like there are no qualified black candidates throughout the country and every person that gets a BEE job is unsuitable.
 

Lupus

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Then they’re implementing it incorrectly.
I can’t believe it needs to be said but BEE is about hiring the best black candidate.

A qualified white candidate will and should be hired over an unqualified black candidate even with BEE.

The way some carry on here makes it seem like there are no qualified black candidates throughout the country.
Yes the best black candidate, not the best candidate, even if the best candidate has better qualifications and experience, the best black one gets it, even if he's just got a standard 8. That's how it works and it's been a few places.
 

surface

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Lots of reasons. I will give 1 example.

Here we have access. Access who is white has only completed Std 8 and has no further qualifications or experience.

We also have thechamp, a young black man who has all the relevant qualifications and experience for the job.

The hiring manager, Rietrot, decides to hire access for reasons.

Although even with BEE this is still happening.
Access has inherited genes from Newton who was a devout christian. Rietrot would prefer him as a cultural familiarity as a genes companion - he would never discriminate on the basis of race.
 

pinball wizard

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Well i have never met anyone who freely admitted to being a BEE/AA hire , must be some sort of stigma attached to it .
I also havent spoken much to upper tier government officials either .
I dunno. I know a few very competent women who are well aware of their status as BEE/AA/EE options and leverage that to get higher salaries and move across organisations quite quickly. They are however people that would excel at their jobs even in a non-BEEEE world.

I'm not sure of the relevance in government at any level, as in my experience, all positions and hires are filled by non-whites.
 

Jabulani22

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I dunno. I know a few very competent women who are well aware of their status as BEE/AA/EE options and leverage that to get higher salaries and move across organisations quite quickly. They are however people that would excel at their jobs even in a non-BEEEE world.

I'm not sure of the relevance in government at any level, as in my experience, all positions and hires are filled by non-whites.
So 1st5 part is not really them requiring it , good there.
2nd part is the reason i mention gov. is because as we can see they are mostly incompetent.(and as such would not excel even when given a headstart)
 

abzo

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Yes the best black candidate, not the best candidate, even if the best candidate has better qualifications and experience, the best black one gets it, even if he's just got a standard 8. That's how it works and it's been a few places.
Unfortunately if it’s a close enough call and the black candidate scores a hypothetical 7/10 and the white candidate scores 8/10 based on their skills, qualifications and experience, you’re going to have to give it to the black candidate.

But were the black candidate to score a 5/10 and get the job, that’s not BEE. That’s corruption. People too often mistake the two and blame it on BEE.
 

konfab

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That’s not how BEE works but you know that already.
Oh right. It is even better than petty racial nationalism. It is legalised corruption
Lots of reasons. I will give 1 example.

Here we have thechamp. who is black has only completed Std 8 and has no further qualifications or experience, but is a member of the ANC.

We also have Access , a young white man who has all the relevant qualifications and experience for the job.

The hiring manager, Abzo, decides to hire thechamp because government regulation #5408573948 says that he has to.
 

Lupus

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Unfortunately if it’s a close enough call and the black candidate scores a hypothetical 7/10 and the white candidate scores 8/10 based on their skills, qualifications and experience, you’re going to have to give it to the black candidate.

But were the black candidate to score a 5/10 and get the job, that’s not BEE. That’s corruption. People too often mistake the two and blame it on BEE.
Yeah I can see you've not dealt with it in reality. We've had to give it to the 5 over the 8, because the 8 had a strong Afrikaans name, that 5 left after 3 years as he just used us for experience. Now we're in the same boat but the candidates for the last 10 months have been well dismisal.
You can't pigeon hole people into roles they don't really want, like we had some arrogant lady coming in and going oh look at this department it's so male dominant, it shouldn't be like that where's the ladies? So my boss turned around and said, most ladies don't really like trying to rack mount 30kg servers, or running cables, or writing scripts or or, it's not like we've not tried, it's just there aren't many who want it. We have one that stepped up and she's been pretty cool
 

abzo

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Yeah I can see you've not dealt with it in reality. We've had to give it to the 5 over the 8, because the 8 had a strong Afrikaans name, that 5 left after 3 years as he just used us for experience. Now we're in the same boat but the candidates for the last 10 months have been well dismisal.
You can't pigeon hole people into roles they don't really want, like we had some arrogant lady coming in and going oh look at this department it's so male dominant, it shouldn't be like that where's the ladies? So my boss turned around and said, most ladies don't really like trying to rack mount 30kg servers, or running cables, or writing scripts or or, it's not like we've not tried, it's just there aren't many who want it. We have one that stepped up and she's been pretty cool
Just because your organization is implementing it incorrectly... Why did they even bother to shortlist the guy with the strong Afrikaans name in the first place then?
But you’re right, I don’t deal with it in reality. I only sat in on 7 Zoom interviews this week out of boredom.
 

grok

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A qualified white candidate will and should be hired over an unqualified black candidate even with BEE.
LOL nope. Example: just before lockdown the distribution of workload was discussed at one of my high profile clients, 7 developers but just 5 candidates on the spreadsheet, waitabloody minute how come?
Their manager says they (both black) cannot deliver but he also can't get rid of them, so he gives them sysadmin work as he cannot afford one of us consultants to redo any development work done by them.
Their job description is developer & they get developer salaries, but meanwhile this company won't even consider white candidates as applicants, I know 'cos its close to home so I tried..
 

Lupus

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Just because your organization is implementing it incorrectly... Why did they even bother to shortlist the guy with the strong Afrikaans name in the first place then?
But you’re right, I don’t deal with it in reality. I only sat in on 7 Zoom interviews this week out of boredom.
Organizations, not 1 but a few over the last 20 years or so. In the beginning it was implemented closer to how you imagine it, but now it's not. That's why I said go speak to large corporations HR departments. As we've not hired a white guy since 2015.
 

Cage Rattler

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There are state institutions who will rather hire black actuaries from outside the country than white actuaries inside the country if they can't find local black actuaries. Many large corporates will not hire white candidates irrespective of their experience ..they will rather leave the position vacant until they find a black candidate.
 
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thechamp

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Don't mind me, I am just here for the stories, that's my favorite thing about these BEE threads, keep them coming.
 

Nqindi

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Yes the best black candidate, not the best candidate, even if the best candidate has better qualifications and experience, the best black one gets it, even if he's just got a standard 8. That's how it works and it's been a few places.
These two are not mutually exclusive. It is possible to have the best candidate that also happens to be black. The problem with white businesses is that they would go for the under qualified white person with less experience than go for umunt' omnyama who is better qualified. BEE is, therefore, a corrective measure that ensures fairness.

Of course there will be those that complain; mostly those that are used to getting a free ride from they skin. They hate it because now they have to complete.
 
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