Report: 97 percent of scientists say man-made climate change is real

HapticSimian

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Doing a rough calculation we produce 0.05% of the energy provided by means of solar radiation. Thats probably a heck of a lot more than what you were exepcting, and definately not a miniscule amount. Going to try and verify...

Archer, methinks you've got this entire thing arse-about-face. Switching on your heater has very little to do with it; heat from the sun is increasingly trapped by pollutants in the atmosphere. Lighting a match is not the issue.
 

Techne

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Doing a rough calculation we produce 0.05% of the energy provided by means of solar radiation. Thats probably a heck of a lot more than what you were exepcting, and definately not a miniscule amount. Going to try and verify...
Even if it was that much, that is not the issue when it comes to AGW. The issue is with CO2 production and its ability to trap whatever heat is generated (be it by us or the sun or whatever).
 

Archer

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Archer, methinks you've got this entire thing arse-about-face. Switching on your heater has very little to do with it; heat from the sun is increasingly trapped by pollutants in the atmosphere. Lighting a match is not the issue.

Sigh...
Yes I know that, I know that the heat getting trapped is the primary concern, but making more heat is clearly also a concern. Especially when you consider that most of that heat produced is only done because of energy production methods that themselves add to the trapping effect. I was just trying to point out that each individual really does add to the whole mess.
 

HapticSimian

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Sigh...
Yes I know that, I know that the heat getting trapped is the primary concern, but making more heat is clearly also a concern. Especially when you consider that most of that heat produced is only done because of energy production methods that themselves add to the trapping effect. I was just trying to point out that each individual really does add to the whole mess.

Sure... but that really isn't how your initial post read. ;)
 

STS

Mafia Detective
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Physics failure - the heat does not disappear, everything just reaches a new equilibrium. And since earth is a semi closed system, some of that heat remains.

i know it goes elsewhere :p i thought you were comparing the earth to a kettle :D
 

STS

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Archer, methinks you've got this entire thing arse-about-face. Switching on your heater has very little to do with it; heat from the sun is increasingly trapped by pollutants in the atmosphere. Lighting a match is not the issue.

THIS JUST IN! EXPERTS HAVE DISCOVERED THE BIGGEST CAUSE OF GLOBAL WARMING IS THE SUN! :D :D

stay tuned ;)
 

spiff

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The south pole ice extent has actually grown the past 30 years.
seaice.anomaly.antarctic.png


From Arctic Climate Research at the University of Illinois http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/

And here are the Northern hemisphere and global pictures:
seaice.anomaly.arctic.png

global.daily.ice.area.withtrend.jpg


well that's interesting cause something causing the glaciers to melt?

see nasa's satellite explanation:

In the Southern Hemisphere summer of 2002, scientists monitoring daily satellite images of the Antarctic Peninsula watched in amazement as almost the entire Larsen B Ice Shelf splintered and collapsed in just over one month. They had never witnessed such a large area—3,250 square kilometers, or 1,250 square miles—disintegrate so rapidly


While the collapse of the Larsen B was unprecedented in terms of scale, it was not the first ice shelf on the Antarctic Peninsula to experience an abrupt break up. The northernmost section of the Larsen Ice Shelf Complex, called Larsen A, lost about 1,500 square kilometers of ice in an abrupt event in January 1995. Following the even more spectacular collapse in 2002, the Larsen A and B glaciers experienced an abrupt acceleration, about 300% on average, and their mass loss went from 2–4 gigatonnes per year in 1996 and 2000 (a gigatonne is one billion metric tonnes), to between 22 and 40 gigatonnes per year in 2006.


u can view photo's & read the rest of the article here:

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/larsenb.php

now after reading that ask yourself the question - why r these glaciers melting at such a rate?? also note the pools of water on top of glacier! I know some scientists say that it is unlikely that the entire polar ice will melt away in our life time, but they have been wrong before and r constantly revising their estimates the more data they collect!

right now at 39.2degrees I sure could do with some of that ice :) time for another dip in the pool.
 

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
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There are people in this forum that claim that there is more Ice in the South Pole. Of course this is dishonest and only look at part of the facts. Theyre only talking about one part of Antarctica which has ice growing (sea ice).

The climate change deniers never miss a chance to tell us that research is showing the Antarctic ice sheet is actually growing. That sounds like the total amount of ice is increasing and things are just fine......the globe isn't heating up if it's not happening there......right?

That IS enough to make some people disbelieve the climate scientists because, after all, no one wants to think the climate is going to steadily get worse. We all secretly hope that the deniers are right.

Yes, the Antarctic ice sheet is growing in height in the central region, but making just that one point is very misleading and quite dishonest.

There is an enormous amount of research that has been conducted on the poles and there is much more to the story than just the increase in snow in the middle of the continent. Indeed the coast is where the real action is.

The leading U.S. climate scientist Dr. James Hansen responded via email saying "The most precise data on the mass of the ice sheets, from the gravity satellite, show that, overall, Antarctica is losing mass, as is Greenland, even though East Antarctica is gaining a small amount of mass."
http://www.countercurrents.org/burbeck100108.htm

Skeptic arguments that Antarctica is gaining ice frequently hinge on an error of omission, namely ignoring the difference between land ice and sea ice.

In glaciology and particularly with respect to Antarctic ice, not all things are created equal. Let us consider the following differences. Antarctic land ice is the ice which has accumulated over thousands of years on the Antarctica landmass itself through snowfall. This land ice therefore is actually stored ocean water that once fell as precipitation. Sea ice in Antarctica is quite different as it is generally considered to be ice which forms in salt water primarily during the winter months.

In Antarctica, sea ice grows quite extensively during winter but nearly completely melts away during the summer (Figure 1). That is where the important difference between antarctic and arctic sea ice exists. Arctic sea ice lasts all the year round, there are increases during the winter months and decreases during the summer months but an ice cover does in fact remain in the North which includes quite a bit of ice from previous years (Figure 1). Essentially Arctic sea ice is more important for the earth's energy balance because when it melts, more sunlight is absorbed by the oceans whereas Antarctic sea ice normally melts each summer leaving the earth's energy balance largely unchanged.
http://www.skepticalscience.com/antarctica-gaining-ice.htm

There is a reason why the sea ice in Antartica is growing: http://www.livescience.com/environment/antarctica-ice-growing-while-arctic-ice-shrinks-100617.html

Tsk tsk tsk, so much dishonest science coming from the usual suspect.
 

Techne

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Tsk tsk, I see the usual suspect still relies on ad hominems. Why? What's the matter, do you think your replies might be less effective when you don't resort to fallacies?

Anyway, if you want to calm down, relax and discuss the facts, here, have a look:
Increasing rates of ice mass loss from the Greenland and Antarctic ice sheets revealed by GRACE
Positive Mass Balance of the Ross Ice Streams, West Antarctica
East Antarctic Ice Sheet Gains Mass and Slows Sea Level Rise, Study Finds
Antarctica's Ice Mass: Is it really losing ice, gaining ice, or both?

etc. etc.

It appears that "the amount of “loss” is below the noise level" of current detectors... well, that is what the experts in last link say.

The discussion on Antarctica’s ice mass could go on and on. It appears settled the amount of “loss” is below the noise level. It isn’t easy to find information on the total land-based ice mass on Antarctica, but if we accept the claim that sea levels would rise 61 meters if 100% of it melted, we can impute the mass. There are 335 million square kilometers of ocean on the planet, so you can easily calculate the ice mass of Antarctica must be about 20.5 million gigatons. A net loss of 150 gigatons against a mass of 20.5 million gigatons is nothing. It is beyond the rounding error – certainly beyond the capability of the Grace satellites to accurately record.

Digging deeper, it appears generally acknowledged that the sea around most of Antarctica is cooling, and the surface temperatures in Antarctica are cooling. The one anecdote that remains somewhat alarming has nothing at all to do with climate change – it appears some instability may be imparted to the ice mass through vulcanism. Perhaps we should look into all of this further, but at this point there doesn’t appear to be anything behind claims of global warming causing alarming melt trends in Antarctica.
 
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Archer

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Techne, for someone who likes finding proof of stuff, you sure are basing a lot of what you are saying off hearsay in your last post. I have not been able to find a single mention of what the actual error rate in the GRACE data is. So how can you be so sure that what you are saying is correct?
 

Ronjay

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Hmmmm, lets see, over a thousand scientists that have studied this issue for years, it's all they do, say that climate change is a result of man. A few scientists disagree, and they may or may not have an agenda in doing this (working for oil companies etc) But lets all just ignore these scientists shall we, after all, they can't possibly know what they are talking about. [sigh]
 

copacetic

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Ok, then the title of the threat is misleading.

Sounds more accurate :)

Well, no, they did not just ask them.

Abstract

Although preliminary estimates from published literature and expert surveys suggest striking agreement among climate scientists on the tenets of anthropogenic climate change (ACC), the American public expresses substantial doubt about both the anthropogenic cause and the level of scientific agreement underpinning ACC. A broad analysis of the climate scientist community itself, the distribution of credibility of dissenting researchers relative to agreeing researchers, and the level of agreement among top climate experts has not been conducted and would inform future ACC discussions. Here, we use an extensive dataset of 1,372 climate researchers and their publication and citation data to show that (i) 97–98% of the climate researchers most actively publishing in the field support the tenets of ACC outlined by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, and (ii) the relative climate expertise and scientific prominence of the researchers unconvinced of ACC are substantially below that of the convinced researchers.
 

Techne

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Techne, for someone who likes finding proof of stuff, you sure are basing a lot of what you are saying off hearsay in your last post. I have not been able to find a single mention of what the actual error rate in the GRACE data is. So how can you be so sure that what you are saying is correct?
Well, look at the latest article on mass loss in the Antarctic:
http://www.agu.org/journals/ABS/2009/2009GL040222.shtml

We use monthly measurements of time-variable gravity from the GRACE (Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment) satellite gravity mission to determine the ice mass-loss for the Greenland and Antarctic Ice Sheets during the period between April 2002 and February 2009. We find that during this time period the mass loss of the ice sheets is not a constant, but accelerating with time, i.e., that the GRACE observations are better represented by a quadratic trend than by a linear one, implying that the ice sheets contribution to sea level becomes larger with time. In Greenland, the mass loss increased from 137 Gt/yr in 2002–2003 to 286 Gt/yr in 2007–2009, i.e., an acceleration of −30 ± 11 Gt/yr2 in 2002–2009. In Antarctica the mass loss increased from 104 Gt/yr in 2002–2006 to 246 Gt/yr in 2006–2009, i.e., an acceleration of −26 ± 14 Gt/yr2 in 2002–2009. The observed acceleration in ice sheet mass loss helps reconcile GRACE ice mass estimates obtained for different time periods.
Not exactly accurate. It takes about 360Gt to raise sea levels by about 1mm, at that rate (in above article) together with the fact that the Antarctic has actually been cooling (due to the ozone layer or whatever), work out how long it is going to take for the entire Antarctic to melt and cause 60m sea-level rise. Look at sea-level rise..

Look, I am not denying that humans have an influence on climate and global warming. I am unsure about the extent of our influence and feel much of the hysteria, alarmism and earth worshipping is unnecessary. I am all for better technologies (can't wait for the results of the fusion experiment in 2013 I think) and cleaner, more environmental friendly energy. However, a lot of this hysteria is what is driving this ridiculous carbon tax scam.
 
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Hmmmm, lets see, over a thousand scientists that have studied this issue for years, it's all they do, say that climate change is a result of man. A few scientists disagree, and they may or may not have an agenda in doing this (working for oil companies etc) But lets all just ignore these scientists shall we, after all, they can't possibly know what they are talking about. [sigh]

You appear to be suffering from an extreme case of manufactured perception. I'm not saying that these guys are wrong, but to base your argument on "over a thousand scientists that have studied this issue for years, it's all they do, say that climate change is a result of man" shows an extreme arrogance, or blind faith or intellectual laziness that's just begging to be picked on. For instance:

The IPCC consensus on climate change was phoney, says IPCC insider

The UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change misled the press and public into believing that thousands of scientists backed its claims on manmade global warming, according to Mike Hulme, a prominent climate scientist and IPCC insider. The actual number of scientists who backed that claim was “only a few dozen experts,” he states in a paper for Progress in Physical Geography, co-authored with student Martin Mahony.

“Claims such as ‘2,500 of the world’s leading scientists have reached a consensus that human activities are having a significant influence on the climate’ are disingenuous,” the paper states unambiguously, adding that they rendered “the IPCC vulnerable to outside criticism.”

Hulme, Professor of Climate Change in the School of Environmental Sciences at the University of East Anglia – the university of Climategate fame — is the founding Director of the Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research and one of the UK’s most prominent climate scientists. Among his many roles in the climate change establishment, Hulme was the IPCC’s co-ordinating Lead Author for its chapter on ‘Climate scenario development’ for its Third Assessment Report and a contributing author of several other chapters.

Hulme’s depiction of IPCC’s exaggeration of the number of scientists who backed its claim about man-made climate change can be found on pages 10 and 11 of his paper, found here.

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com...e-was-phoney-says-ipcc-insider/#ixzz0r9tPGKr9

Hulme goes on to convincingly argue that:

Without a careful explanation about what it means, this drive for consensus can leave the IPCC vulnerable to outside criticism. Claims such as ‘2,500 of the world’s leading scientists have reached a consensus that human activities are having a significant influence on the climate’ are disingenuous. That particular consensus judgement, as are many others in the IPCC reports, is reached by only a few dozen experts in the specific field of detection and attribution studies; other IPCC authors are experts in other fields. But consensus- making can also lead to criticism for being too conservative, as Hansen (2007) has most visibly argued. Was the IPCC AR4 too conservative in reaching its consensus about future sea-level rise? Many glaciologists and oceanographers think they were (Kerr, 2007; Rahmstorf, 2010), leading to what Hansen attacks as ‘scientific reticence’. Solomon et al. (2008) offer a robust defence, stating that far from reaching a premature consensus, the AR4 report stated that in fact no consensus could be reached on the magnitude of the possible fast ice-sheet melt processes that some fear could lead to 1 or 2 metres of sea-level rise this century. Hence these processes were not included in the quantitative estimates.

This leads onto the question of how uncertainty more generally has been treated across the various IPCC Working Groups. As Ha-Duong et al. (2007) and Swart et al. (2009) explain, despite efforts by the IPCC leadership to introduce a consistent methodology for uncertainty communication (Moss & Schneider, 2000; Manning, 2006), it has in fact been impossible to police. Different Working Groups, familiar and comfortable with different epistemic traditions, construct and communicate uncertainty in different ways. This opens up possibilities for confusion and misunderstanding not just for policy-makers and the public, but among the experts within the IPCC itself (Risbey & Kandlikar, 2007).

For Ha-Duong et al. (2007) this diversity is an advantage: “The diverse, multi- dimensional approach to uncertainty communication used by IPCC author teams is not only legitimate, but enhances the quality of the assessment by providing information about the nature of the uncertainties” (p.10). This position reflects that of others who have thought hard about how best to construct uncertainty for policy-relevant assessments (Van der Sluijs, 2005; Van der Sluijs et al., 2005). For these authors ‘taming the uncertainty monster’ requires combining quantitative and qualitative measures of uncertainty in model-based environmental assessment: the so-called NUSAP (Numerical, Unit, Spread, Assessment, Pedigrees) System (Funtowicz & Ravetz, 1990). Webster (2009) agrees with regard to the IPCC: “Treatment of uncertainty will become more important than consensus if the IPCC is to stay relevant to the decisions that face us” (p.39). Yet Webster also argues that such diverse forms of uncertainty assessment will require much more careful explanation about how different uncertainty metrics are reached; for example the difference between frequentist and Bayesian probabilities and the necessity of expert, and therefore subjective, judgements in any assessment process (see also Hulme, 2009a; Guy & Estrada, 2010).

This suggests that more studies such as Petersen’s detailed investigation of the claim about detection and attribution in the IPCC Third Assessment Report (Petersen, 2010; see also 2000 and 2006) are to be welcomed.

I do not deny that man has a huge impact on our environment and that industry and our consumption based behavior is in dire need of reform, but to the ones who place their faith in manufactured opinion and numbers I wish you all well. All that I know is that humans have only been here for a few seconds on the planetary timeline. I wish those luck who are able to come to absolute conclusions based on 1 or 2 hundred years of information, while not being able to establish trends based on the other 2.5 BILLION years in the bag in terms of global temperatures. A rational person would take a cautious approach to this topic and consider both arguments.
 

w1z4rd

Karmic Sangoma
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Antarctica could do with a beach resort.

Its ganna shortly with enough tinfoil hat specialists like Ixa :( *sigh* From creationists to this. Science never gets a break from the crackpots and politics :/
 
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