Ricky Martin is accused of incest by his nephew

[airborne]

The grooming of a child is an entirely separate matter. That should be, and probably is, illegal in most countries regardless of whether the person is a blood relation. I'm not talking about some sicko grooming a child, I'm talking about 2 consenting adults only. Can you please stop trying to bring that into what I'm saying here.

Let's say for example that 2 brothers were estranged and met up later in life. Hit it off and decided to pursue a relationship. How exactly does that cause trouble for anybody else in society? Why should that be anybody else's business?

I honestly don't get the condemnation. What the heck does it have to do with anyone else?

It's a similar principle to homosexuality. It's not my cup of tea, but whatever 2 consenting adults choose to do is up to them.

Grooming doesn’t necessarily include behaviour that is illegal and can be prosecuted for child abuse, it can be the programming that lays the foundation what is to come when the child is of age. Because it happens within the family unit you can’t separate incest from the potential for children being groomed and that’s why it’s wisest to rather ban it outright.

And child abuse is so difficult to even detect never mind eradicate why add more jeopardy to children's lives that if they get groomed and/or abused as children family members can legally commit incest with them when they come of age, by which time the lines would have been nearly irreparably blurred.

 

[Nerfherder]

I think it’s illegal for good reason, probably because due to incest happening within family systems children can get groomed by older family members into engaging in incest, even if the incest only happened at the age of consent the abusive manipulation may have started many years prior. That and the problems of inbreeding and it being really grim.

Interesting fact I discovered today is Elon Musks father Errol who is 75 has fathered 2 children with his step daughter
It’s apparently the reason Elon has nothing to do with him.

Elon Musk’s father confirms second child with his own stepdaughter - report

His estranged son went ‘berserk’ and daughters felt ‘creepy’ on finding out their father had impregnated stepdaughter

www.independent.co.uk

Well step daughter is not incest but you are correct. The incest laws do aim to prevent grooming as well.

I think though they are probably out of date though as most likely they were created in the same spirit as anti homosexuality laws and are more about purity and decency then anything else.

If incest laws were actually going to prevent grooming it would include things like adopted relationships and step siblings.

 

[Nerfherder]

Excluding the three kids with his first wife, Errol Musk has another 4 kids, two with his stepdaughter and two with her mother. Making his children aunts/uncles as well siblings to the other two.

Its inappropriate but not incest.

Incest is with a blood relative.

No wonder Elon hates him so much.

 

[Slootvreter]

To become noticeable you mean, the higher risk factors associated with it is still embedded in all those future descendants. Slowly diluted out with non related breeding
If it is good practice to avoid it with your livestock you'd think it would apply to humans as well.

I wonder what the odds are of having a child with someome totally unrelated and that child has the misfortune of having a combination of the worst of the parents.

Lmao.

 

[porchrat]

Grooming doesn’t necessarily include behaviour that is illegal and can be prosecuted for child abuse, it can be the programming that lays the foundation what is to come when the child is of age. Because it happens within the family unit you can’t separate incest from the potential for children being groomed and that’s why it’s wisest to rather ban it outright.

And child abuse is so difficult to even detect never mind eradicate why add more jeopardy to children's lives that if they get groomed and/or abused as children family members can legally commit incest with them when they come of age, by which time the lines would have been nearly irreparably blurred.

Jeepers with all this child grooming happening left and right we should rather just separate the kids from the parents at birth. Just get them into the state's hands and keep them safe.

See, I get what you're saying there and I'm obviously against the grooming as every right-thinking person should be. However the example I've provided to you of 2 estranged brothers carries not only no grooming, but no chance of children. So do you object to the coupling in that scenario and if so on what basis?

i.e. Is it incest itself you have an issue with, or the sometimes associated issues like birth defects and grooming?

 

[airborne]

Show me where I said it's a non-issue, that no birth defects could result.

You're putting words in my mouth mate.

Either that or you've misunderstood what I'm saying entirely.


It's possible yes, and certainly more so than when non-blood relatives have kids. I never said otherwise (again, I don't think you're really reading what I'm writing here).

It's however pretty rare. Usually you've both got to carry the exact same dysfunctional recessive genes for something like this to happen. Usually to get into that scenario requires consistent inbreeding in a population.

Well you certainly went out of your way to try minimise the risk and ridicule those pointing it out, I quoted the 2 posts where you did just that.

It’s not pretty rare, it’s high risk, why do you think 3 out 4 of those siblings offspring had to be institutionalised?

That’s the basic premise of why incest is taboo the world over, there is a very high risk of creating offspring with severe birth defects.

 

[Nerfherder]

You can groom an unrelated child just the same.

Laws protecting children from such situations seem to be the answer there.

A step daughter isn't even incest though, so these incest laws don't cover that scenario. The situation you're describing, of coercion and manipulation of a minor, is something entirely different.

I'm talking about 2 consenting adults, fully within their right minds. Nobody has been manipulated, nobody has been coerced. What right do I, or anyone else, have to say they can't do whatever the heck they want?

I don't like it when the state tells me what to do with my life when it's something that realistically doesn't impact anyone else. I don't see why this situation of incest is any different.

Sure I find it weird... but it's none of my business.

Ya, its hard.

For me the issue is that Errol Musk married this girls mom when the girl was 4. At age 4 you still wipe the kids arse, now he has had two kids with her.
We need a law for that.
Woddy Allen did the same, Mia Farrow adopted a kid while she was married to Allen, he is in a relationship with her now. The age thing is weird but what is weirder is he was changing her nappies at some point.

 

[porchrat]

Well you certainly went out of your way to try minimise the risk and ridicule those pointing it out, I quoted the 2 posts where you did just that.

I don't recall ridiculing you at all.

and again, I never said it was a non-issue. It's about odds. All of genetics is.

It’s not pretty rare, it’s high risk, why do you think 3 out 4 of those siblings offspring had to be institutionalised?

because those kids lost the draw and carried recessive genes that they passed on to their kids.

In order for this to occur both parents need to have (A) received those genes and (B) pass them on in their gametes. It's not as easy as you make it out to be.

That’s the basic premise of why incest is taboo the world over, there is a very high risk of creating offspring with severe birth defects.

It's not really that high risk with just the first generation. It can happen, and it's certainly higher than if you aren't banging your sister, but it generally takes multiple generations to see the really weird stuff showing up.

 

[TEXTILE GUY]

That’s the basic premise of why incest is taboo the world over, there is a very high risk of creating offspring with severe birth defects.

I wonder if Ego Hlaudi ..... Jake Zuma ..... Juju Malema ..... mmmmm ........

 

[porchrat]

Ya, its hard.

For me the issue is that Errol Musk married this girls mom when the girl was 4. At age 4 you still wipe the kids arse, now he has had two kids with her.
We need a law for that.
Woddy Allen did the same, Mia Farrow adopted a kid while she was married to Allen, he is in a relationship with her now. The age thing is weird but what is weirder is he was changing her nappies at some point.

It's possible there was some sort of manipulative grooming going on there. It's also possible there wasn't.

Personally I think if you're banging your kids, even if they're stepkids, you're a weirdo. You're supposed to protect those kids, not put your penis in them.

I still can't discount that they genuinely just had feelings for each other without any manipulation. If that's the case, even though I find it weird. It's not doing any harm.

It's hard to prove either way unfortunately.

 

[airborne]

Jeepers with all this child grooming happening left and right we should rather just separate the kids from the parents at birth. Just get them into the state's hands and keep them safe.

See, I get what you're saying there and I'm obviously against the grooming as every right-thinking person should be. However the example I've provided to you of 2 estranged brothers carries not only no grooming, but no chance of children. So do you object to the coupling in that scenario and if so on what basis?

i.e. Is it incest itself you have an issue with, or the sometimes associated issues like birth defects and grooming?

Jeepers with all this child grooming happening left and right we should rather just separate the kids from the parents at birth. Just get them into the state's hands and keep them safe.

See, I get what you're saying there and I'm obviously against the grooming as every right-thinking person should be. However the example I've provided to you of 2 estranged brothers carries not only no grooming, but no chance of children. So do you object to the coupling in that scenario and if so on what basis?

i.e. Is it incest itself you have an issue with, or the sometimes associated issues like birth defects and grooming?

You are pretty sick dude. Sexual grooming isn’t a joke, it’s what predators use to manipulate young vulnerable minds, it’s fkn evil.

I’m arguing the reality of child abuse you are arguing narrow and pointless hypotheticals.

Yes if 2 people that grew up separately in healthy well adjusted families found each other, realised they were siblings but wanted to commit incest that’s their choice. I’d still draw the line at them being able to have children because that’s not fair on the kids and society as a whole.

 

[porchrat]

You are pretty sick dude.

Mate I'm not attacking you personally, could I get the same courtesy in return please.

Sexual grooming isn’t a joke, it’s what predators use to manipulate young vulnerable minds, it’s fkn evil.

Oh I agree. My point with that absurd scenario was to demonstrate that we often don't have a way of knowing whether or not grooming has occurred. That the state can go too far with laws in response to this uncertainty. A scenario in which no grooming has occurred but genuine feelings happen can be caught up with people that are groomed.

I’m arguing the reality of child abuse you are arguing narrow and pointless hypotheticals.

I'm not sure what the statistics are on what percentage of people fiddled with by their siblings or parents were groomed. I'm not sure anyone really knows. As you yourself have already mentioned, it's really difficult to know if grooming has occurred.

I'd say you're less arguing the reality and more what you think the reality is.

Yes if 2 people that grew up separately in healthy well adjusted families found each other, realised they were siblings but wanted to commit incest that’s their choice. I’d still draw the line at them being able to have children because that’s not fair on the kids and society as a whole.

and this is my point. That incest itself is something I see nothing wrong with.

We all acknowledge that it comes with potential baggage. In an ideal world I'd like to see that baggage dealt with separately. It's difficult, potentially impossible, but in principle, I don't see how 2 consenting adults choosing to hook up is my business regardless of their blood relation.

 

[Nerfherder]

It's possible there was some sort of manipulative grooming going on there. It's also possible there wasn't.

Personally I think if you're banging your kids, even if they're stepkids, you're a weirdo. You're supposed to protect those kids, not put your penis in them.

I still can't discount that they genuinely just had feelings for each other without any manipulation. If that's the case, even though I find it weird. It's not doing any harm.

It's hard to prove either way unfortunately.

Its also likely that Ricky was the bread winner for the entire family and so was more of an "uncle" than just being his mothers brother.

 

[airborne]

I don't recall ridiculing you at all.

and again, I never said it was a non-issue. It's about odds. All of genetics is.


because those kids lost the draw and carried recessive genes that they passed on to their kids.

In order for this to occur both parents need to have (A) received those genes and (B) pass them on in their gametes. It's not as easy as you make it out to be.


It's not really that high risk with just the first generation. It can happen, and it's certainly higher than if you aren't banging your sister, but it generally takes multiple generations to see the really weird stuff showing up.

The degree that you are pushing incest and talking bs seems to point you have some investment in this matter. Children of incest have a very high risk of birth defects.

“Offspring of biologically related persons are subject to the possible effects of inbreeding, such as congenital birth defects.

The chances of such disorders are increased when the biological parents are more closely related. This is because such pairings have a 25% probability of producing homozygous zygotes, resulting in offspring with two recessive alleles, which can produce disorders when these alleles are deleterious. Because most recessive alleles are rare in populations, it is unlikely that two unrelated marriage partners will both be carriers of the same deleterious allele; however, because close relatives share a large fraction of their alleles, the probability that any such deleterious allele is inherited from the common ancestor through both parents is increased dramatically.”

 

[porchrat]

Its also likely that Ricky was the bread winner for the entire family and so was more of an "uncle" than just being his mothers brother.

That also puts him into a position of power over the relation.

It's not something I find particularly palatable regardless.

 

[Nerfherder]

That also puts him into a position of power over the relation.

It's not something I find particularly palatable regardless.

and also no law against that... so incest laws looks like an best attempt here.

 

[porchrat]

The degree that you are pushing incest and talking bs seems to point you have some investment in this matter.

That's the third time you've inferred that I'm banging a non-existent sister. If you can't have a conversation without taking personal shots at the other participant in every post then we're done here. Cheers mate. For shame.

 

[porchrat]

and also no law against that... so incest laws looks like an best attempt here.

Me finding something unpalatable and thinking it should be illegal are 2 separate things.

I find communism unpalatable. That doesn't mean I think espousing communist thoughts should be illegal.

The whole "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight to the death for your right to say it" principle applies for me here.

If I don't see harm to me or society as a result of the actions of consenting adults I don't feel I really get a say in it.

Grooming can easily happen outside of blood relations. A law banning blood relations from banging is not a law addressing grooming. It's not even a best attempt. If the goal is to stop grooming it's an illogical and abysmal failure.

 

[airborne]

That's the third time you've inferred that I'm banging a non-existent sister. If you can't have a conversation without taking personal shots at the other participant in every post then we're done here. Cheers mate. For shame.

I’m just being honest, it is sick to joke about sexual grooming, especially on this particular subject and point in the discussion, your choice not mine.

But yeah tell us about how low risk having inbreed children is, maybe you can revolutionise how scientists understand gene inheritance.

 

[CommonSense]

Eww, another incest advocate has joined the fray.

No that wasn’t what Porchrat was getting at, he even went as far as to claim that children borne as a result of incest is a non issue, that the birth defects that is common in these children is overblown and nothing to worry about :vomit:

Dude, with due respect, you need to seek psychological assistance. It does appear that something happened in your life at some point which is clouding your ability to understand the nuances being talked about here. The term "the lady doth protest too much" comes to mind.

In your mind incest can only be one thing and one thing only, whereas there are numerous different scenarios.

The point being that concenting adults, where there were no grooming involved at any point, and where no children could be the result (thus avoiding any potential negative impact to offspring), is a different case.

You don't need to be involved in something to have reasoning abilities to understand that in some cases it can be acceptable. Porchrat tried to explain that to you as well, but you just attack and don't listen and reason.