Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 2

[Cosmik Debris]

The difference though is that Ukraine has a Nazi movement that believes in its WW2 traditions and never went through denazification.

In 2022 Ukraine has a Nazi movement with a Jewish president because it wasn't denazified? How do you denazify a country? Send them to a re-education camp? How did the Germans denazify?

You're deluded Nico. And a liar.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

Ukraine Belatedly Admits 'Heavy Casualty Rate' In Appeal For More Weapons From West | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Ukrain taking heavy losses and begging for more equipment.

Yeah, on Zerohedge...

 

[Mirai]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535254137272733697

the pimps of war are doing their best to discredit independent journalists.

To get a "steady stream of info from intel agencies" does not mean Bellingcat is an intel proxy. If we even were to believe some JPGs...

It also doesn't mean Grayzone is legit.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

UK Outraged After 2 British 'Mercenaries' Handed Death Sentences By Pro-Russian Donetsk Court | ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Crazy stuff, live by the sword die by the sword, I guess.

Funny part UK not recognizing Donesk Republic means they can't negotiate.

And Donesk not being a recognised republic by the UN means they cannot have a justice system...

 

[Nicodeamus]

In 2022 Ukraine has a Nazi movement with a Jewish president because it wasn't denazified? How do you denazify a country? Send them to a re-education camp? How did the Germans denazify?

You're deluded Nico. And a liar.

for one you don't integrat people wearing Swasticas into your military.
You don't give Nazi death squads free reign on the streets
you don't integrate the SS lovers into your security forces
you don't rename soccer stadiums after nazi leaders
you don't celebrate national holidays in their name
you don't ban the russian language out of spite.

basic steps like that.

 

[Nicodeamus]

And Donesk not being a recognised republic by the UN means they cannot have a justice system...

there will probably be a de facto legal system forming like with the Koreas

 

[Mirai]

The relationship between Stalin and Russia is complex. Yes he was a mass murderer and a genocidal paranoid maniac, but Stalin also did lead the USSR against Germany and industrialize the country. Russia still is split on his legacy.

Aha so you now understand how some Ukrainians can support Bandera in opposition to USSR and not Bandera for any atrocities OUN/UPA committed. OUN/UPA did not ONLY commit atrocities.

You really judge Russia by different standards. Shame on your cognitive biases and emotional attachment to Russia.

 

[Dave]

Dave.
You didnt understand "encirclement".
Im giving you a lifeline here.

At no stage were we discussing encirclement, you appear to be confused.

 

[Nicodeamus]

Aha so you now understand how some Ukrainians can support Bandera in opposition to USSR and not Bandera for any atrocities OUN/UPA committed. OUN/UPA did not ONLY commit atrocities.

You really judge Russia by different standards. Shame on your cognitive biases and emotional attachment to Russia.

Had it not been for the far right's role in the Maidan Massacres and their deathsquads I might have had sympathy with that argument. It's similar to how many Afrikaners view Verwoerd or Zimbabweans Mugabe.

As for Stalin, even Georgia, his home country, has a love hate relationship with him.

Georgia Is Still Brimming With Stalin Memorabilia

The Soviet leader's home country is a battleground for dueling interpretations of history.

www.atlasobscura.com

Terrorists or national heroes? Politics and perceptions of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine

This study analyzes controversies and public attitudes concerning the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B), the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and Stepan Bandera in Ukraine. The research question is: Which factors

www.academia.edu

Terrorists or national heroes? Politics and perceptions of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine

The study shows that regional factors and perceptions of these orga-nizations' involvement in mass murder were the strongest predictors of the views con-cerning the OUN-B, the UPA and Bandera. Their public support is strongest in Galicia andweakest in the East and the South, in particular, in Donbas and Crimea, two major conictareas since the Euromaidan.

 

[Mirai]

for one you don't integrat people wearing Swasticas into your military.

Russia does.

You don't give Nazi death squads free reign on the streets

You must prove what you mean by that.

Do you mean they shot people in the street en masse?

Or do you mean parties with neo-nazi leanings could march in the streets?

you don't integrate the SS lovers into your security forces

SS lovers... what is an SS lover. Please define. Please provide proof.

So Ukrainians love who more, Hitler or Bandera? Or Himmler?

you don't rename soccer stadiums after nazi leaders

Aeroflot has the hammer and sickle in its logo. Stalin has 70% approval rating. We already covered this.

you don't celebrate national holidays in their name

Why not? If Stalin has 70% approval? If you're celebrating UPA's massacre of civilians - NO, but if you celebrate UPAs fight against Soviet soldiers and NKVD? So the Great Patriotic War led to the death of millions of people like the Germans... why is Russia celebrating this?

you don't ban the russian language out of spite.

Out of spite? Maybe they want to have some self control. You know maybe they want to build up a nation.

basic steps like that.

None of these warrant an invasion. Again shame on you for carrying water for Russian murderers.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1535254137272733697

the pimps of war are doing their best to discredit independent journalists.

Name those "independent" journalists?

 

[Nicodeamus]

Out of spite? Maybe they want to have some self control. You know maybe they want to build up a nation.

if you ban 1/3 of your country from speaking their home language and create policies to alienate them then don't be surprised if they end up fighting for Russia.

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Another evasive red herring.

Lets try that again.

The report by the UN.

Ukraine: civilian casualty update 1 June 2022

Date: 1 June 2022 From 4 a.m. on 24 February 2022, when the Russian Federation’s armed attack against Ukraine started, to 24:00 midnight on 31 May 2022 (local time), the Office of the UN High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) recorded 9,094 civilian casualties in the country: 4,149 killed...

www.ohchr.org

WTF are you on about???

we're talking about the MSM's deliberate misrepresentation of a speech that is freely available and you jump in with a nonsense report by the UN who is not even on the ground?

with the delicious irony of mentioning red herring while you just dumped a motherload of it

 

[Mirai]

Had it not been for the far right's role in the Maidan Massacres and their deathsquads I might have had sympathy with that argument. It's similar to how many Afrikaners view Verwoerd or Zimbabweans Mugabe.

You have sympathy for Russia and Stalin. For Russia and USSR nostalgia.

Sorry. You're just using some personal judgement calls here based on your own history down here in SA if you're bringing in Afrikaaners etc.

As for Stalin, even Georgia, his home country, has a love hate relationship with him.

Georgia Is Still Brimming With Stalin Memorabilia

The Soviet leader's home country is a battleground for dueling interpretations of history.

www.atlasobscura.com

Yes and so Ukraine for Bandera. British Indians for Churchill, some like him, some may hate him.

Churchill is a good example.

Terrorists or national heroes? Politics and perceptions of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine

This study analyzes controversies and public attitudes concerning the Bandera faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN-B), the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA) and Stepan Bandera in Ukraine. The research question is: Which factors

www.academia.edu

Terrorists or national heroes? Politics and perceptions of the OUN and the UPA in Ukraine

The paper says there is some division in the UKR society. There is division over everything in democratic societies. This paper doesn't really help you one war or another.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

The relationship between Stalin and Russia is complex. Yes he was a mass murderer and a genocidal paranoid maniac, but Stalin also did lead the USSR against Germany and industrialize the country. Russia still is split on his legacy.

A 70% approval rating is a split according to you? Let that sink in, 70% of Russians approve of Stalin murdering around 70 million people. And then you rail against the Nazi's? What is the German approval rate of Hitler at present?

 

[NarrowBandFtw]

Yeah, on Zerohedge...

ZH which always provides its actual sources, yes that ZH, why don't you actually check once in a while?

Ukrainian casualties: Kyiv losing up to 200 troops a day - Zelensky aide

Mykhaylo Podolyak told the BBC that Ukraine needs more weapons to match Russia's firepower.

www.bbc.com

We’re almost out of ammunition and relying on western arms, says Ukraine

Exclusive: Deputy head of military intelligence says it’s an artillery war now and ‘everything depends on what the west gives us’

www.theguardian.com

 

[capd]

So funny watching 2 people take on 10, using facts, logic and reason only. And win. Any objective people see it.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

for one you don't integrat people wearing Swasticas into your military.

Is the Russian Wagner Group exempt from this?

You don't give Nazi death squads free reign on the streets
you don't integrate the SS lovers into your security forces
you don't rename soccer stadiums after nazi leaders
you don't celebrate national holidays in their name
you don't ban the russian language out of spite.

basic steps like that.

References for this then Nico? Is banning the Ukrainian language in Ukraine OK then by you?

 

[Mirai]

if you ban 1/3 of your country from speaking their home language and create policies to alienate them then don't be surprised if they end up fighting for Russia.

The language was not banned. You're also cherry picking because that's just how Eastern Europe as former USSR republics handle things. Belarus banned Polish for example.

Russia has been doing language bans too.

Russia is cracking down on minority languages – but a resistance movement is growing

While the Kremlin rages at supposed crackdowns on Russian speakers abroad, it’s rolling out a programme of linguistic homogenisation at home.

theconversation.com

And sure enough, the Russian government has now adopted new amendments to an education bill that will make minority languages lessons in ethnic republics optional, and which limit their teaching to a maximum of two hours a week. These measures will only hasten the demise of these languages – and will ensure that the Russian language remains preeminent across the country.

That's just how the cookie crumbles over there.

Ukraine has a chance to escape that and be in EU/NATO and have a more pluralistic society for better protections for minorities.

 

[Cosmik Debris]

there will probably be a de facto legal system forming like with the Koreas

The Koreas are recognised by the UN. The illegal Russian republics in Ukraine aren't. Just like Transkei, Ciskei and Bophuthatswana weren't in the UN. Remember those Nico? Or are you too young? What happened to those republics?