Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 5

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Mirai

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Made a commitment to who, USSR or Russia?

Great posts on the Loadshedding forum BTW.

This commitment, It's like me committing that wingnut771 will not smoke again.

Whatever BS promise was allegdely made to Gorbachev as claimed was not in the power of those making that promise. The US president and his state dept secretary are under the US Constitution and neither that, nor any act of US Congress makes any verbal promise, as is insinuated, binding on subsequent administrations. If Gorbachev was stupid to believe this, that's his problem. It's strange that a first secretary of the Communist party could be this stupid. But that's Russia. The NATO charter was also not modified to exclude countries of the former Eastern Bloc. It's absurd to claim that because of some verbal promise that one US president made to a leader of a state which no longer exists, America cannot enter into defensive pacts with democratic countries in central and eastern Europe.

I guess Gorbachev should have insisted that this was codified in US law and in the NATO constitution. So either the man was a total idiot or the whole thing was seen as a temporary thing at best.
 

Paulsie

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The ceasefire happens immediately after the Russians withdraw from Ukraine. The ball is in their court.
Once again, why nobody is calling for immediate ceasefire without preconditions is beyond me.

There should be immense international pressure for immediate pause in fighting.

Once civilians have stopped dying, the world can carry on playimg politics.
 

sefeddt

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Mirai

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Once again, why nobody is calling for immediate ceasefire without preconditions is beyond me.

There should be immense international pressure for immediate pause in fighting.

Once civilians have stopped dying, the world can carry on playimg politics.

Yes. And that's taken the form of various sanctions, visa bans, UN votes condemning Russia, and military and humanitarian aid to Ukraine. Russia has been asked many times to stop shooting at legitimate Ukrainian forces who are on sovereign Ukrainian territory.

US president FDR: Yes once Herr Hitler stops killing Jews, Slavs, Roma and gays we'll carry on playing politics by implementing Lend Lease.
 

Sneeky

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Once again, why nobody is calling for immediate ceasefire without preconditions is beyond me.

There should be immense international pressure for immediate pause in fighting.

Once civilians have stopped dying, the world can carry on playimg politics.
Whilst a cessation of the death of innocent civilians is most desirable, I think the obvious answer is that;
Ukr is on the offensive and rather spectacularly.
They are determined to get their territory back or die trying.
Russia can't be trusted, that much is patently clear
Any ceasefire will just allow the Russians time to regroup and mitigate the hard won gains of the Ukr military, as they will amount to nothing more than stalling tactics till they are ready to start pushing back on the fronts.

Russia can end this right now, withdraw to their internationally recognized border and then start discussions. Ukr has no aspirations to annex territory from Russia.
 

WollieVerstege

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Great posts on the Loadshedding forum BTW.

This commitment, It's like me committing that wingnut771 will not smoke again.

Whatever BS promise was allegdely made to Gorbachev as claimed was not in the power of those making that promise. The US president and his state dept secretary are under the US Constitution and neither that, nor any act of US Congress makes any verbal promise, as is insinuated, binding on subsequent administrations. If Gorbachev was stupid to believe this, that's his problem. It's strange that a first secretary of the Communist party could be this stupid. But that's Russia. The NATO charter was also not modified to exclude countries of the former Eastern Bloc. It's absurd to claim that because of some verbal promise that one US president made to a leader of a state which no longer exists, America cannot enter into defensive pacts with democratic countries in central and eastern Europe.

I guess Gorbachev should have insisted that this was codified in US law and in the NATO constitution. So either the man was a total idiot or the whole thing was seen as a temporary thing at best.
Well, Gorbachev himself has said no such promise was made.

Actually had an interesting conversation of a lector at a university here in Rotterdam. According to him the "Eastwards Expansion" was a discussion around the eastward expansion of West German (a NATO member) forces into Eastern Germany after reunification and that as per the West German constitution at the time, those forces would not be deployed beyond East German borders.
 

Cosmik Debris

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are you fahking high?!?

NATO declined Ukraine's application just last week, they decline stuff all the time

only when it suits their agenda do they even go to the ratification process at all

at least check your facts before you fly off a handle next time

NATO doesn't do the declining. The governments that run NATO do that. NATO is not a political entity.
 

MiW

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How does Russia's Vladimir Putin view the biggest threats to his country?
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A picture of a pig and “Good morning Zelensky!!!” written in block letters on the missile launched at Ukraine on October 10th.

Russian state has never been held accountable for any of its actions. And it sincerely wants to hold Zelensky personally accountable for the launches of the rockets into Kyiv, Zhytomir, Lviv in Ukraine from Russian warships located in safety.
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A footbridge blown up with a missile , blame pinned on Volodymyr Zelensky because Russians, weaned on Putin’s criminal regime, are too cowardly and infantile to take responsibility for their own actions.
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Unlike Crimea Bridge that folded like a bad hand in poker, Klychko Bridge in Kyiv sustained the explosion and did not collapse.
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A bombed out business centre in Kyiv. Although Russians leadership move in chauffeur-driven Mercedes Benzes, dress in Brioni suits, dine in Italian restaurants and vacation in the French Riviera on super-yachts built in Netherlands, their faith is rather antediluvian.

They believe that Crimea Bridge is not a structure. Or a piece of infrastructure made of asphalt, steel and concrete.

It has profound, sacral meaning to the Holy Russian Empire. Therefore, two collapsed sections must be drowned in blood of the innocent in retaliation.
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In 2000, Putin promised “if we find terrorists in a toilet, we will kill then in the toilet.”

In 2022, Russian terrorists steal toilets, and Putin has become their official leader. His goal is to crush Ukrainian spirit to drive Anglos out and proclaim Ukraine as the crucial part of the Holy Russian Empire.

Political analyst Maxim Katz noted that in 22 years of his reign Putin hadn’t built or produced anything memorable.

There were the Winter Olympic Games that he staged in the only subtropical city in Russia. For a country that has the largest amount of snow anywhere in the world, artificial snow had to be trucked into the subtropics for the skiers and snowboarders to slide down the mountain slope.

That was an exercise in stupidity rather than grandeur and grandeur of Russia has been the ware that Putin has been peddling to the plebs to cover up the mass scale theft of his cronies.

Invasion of Ukraine has become Putin’s idea fixe, the grand prize that would put him in the history books as a great unifier of Russian lands rather than a grand thief.

The special terrorist operation has always been that - an exercise in terror. And if hitherto they pretended that it wasn’t, the masks are off with the new appointment of the head of the special terrorist operation Sergey Surovikin.
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Sergey Surovikin was the only tank crew member who crushed protesters in August 1991 in Soviet coup d'état attempt in Moscow.

In Syria, as a commander in chief of the Russian Armed Forces, he ordered to flatten whole towns with air bombardments.

Aleppo, one of the oldest continuously inhabited towns in the world, was reduced to ruins until all the civilians have fled.

Syrian militants didn’t have anti-aircraft systems, therefore Surovikin wiped out hospitals, schools, government buildings, residential houses without any fear of retaliation or being held accountable.

In Ukraine, he continued the reign of terror commanding air sorties against military installations, public infrastructure, and residential areas.

As the commander of the special terrorist operation , Surovikin made a debut with more bombings of the Ukrainian civilians and will continue to do so until he is stopped and held accountable for his crimes against humanity and genocide of Ukrainians.

Surovikin just follows orders like a good soldier. It is Putin who kills peaceful Ukrainians because they don’t not want to be the serfs of his imaginary empire.

Putin’s terrorism exposed him for what he really is deep down at heart and in his soul: an evil, impotent Nazi.
 

Mirai

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Well, Gorbachev himself has said no such promise was made.

Actually had an interesting conversation of a lector at a university here in Rotterdam. According to him the "Eastwards Expansion" was a discussion around the eastward expansion of West German (a NATO member) forces into Eastern Germany after reunification and that as per the West German constitution at the time, those forces would not be deployed beyond East German borders.

True. Hence it was rather a 'temporary' thing as mentioned. In the immediate years following this meeting, there was no admission of any countries outside of former East Germany to NATO and no US forces entering ex-DDR.
Baker and Bush actually delivered on this commitment. If more was at stake, which was not in Bush' power to grant anyway, Gorbachev would have insisted on some treaty ratified by US congress and his own Supreme Soviet and documented in the NATO charter and wildly publicised. A summit would have been held obviously and the deal ironed out in exquisite detail. This did not follow. Yes, you're correct.
 

Sneeky

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Well, Gorbachev himself has said no such promise was made.

Actually had an interesting conversation of a lector at a university here in Rotterdam. According to him the "Eastwards Expansion" was a discussion around the eastward expansion of West German (a NATO member) forces into Eastern Germany after reunification and that as per the West German constitution at the time, those forces would not be deployed beyond East German borders.
 
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