Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 5

[Paulsie]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1579578461869731840

Yesterday we were discussing the essence of what a military target is and is not. Some here warned that if you declare a bridge as a military target simply because it was used by the army, you can turn anything into one by virtue of army using it.
And here we are I'm afraid.

Where Ua attack on civilian infrastructure (with some casualties) was celebrated, all of a sudden the same people are seething.
Edit: @rietrot already discussed at length

 

[rietrot]

Russia says they hit all targets that they targeted. So they actually did target the playground.

What is this nonsense form of argumentation? Believe Russia only when it suits you and you can spin it. Lol.

Ukraine says some missiles were shot down, not all missiles hit the target. I doubt the numbers from both sides, but not their statements completely.
Your logic is incorrect. Multiple missile were fired at each target. One missing does not mean the target wasn't hit.

 

[MunosMachos]

Working class people standing together to bring stupid politicians to their senses does work:

Russia Resumes Gas Deliveries to Italy

Russian gas giant Gazprom and its main Italian buyer, Eni, said a bureaucratic hurdle with Austrian authorities that had blocked supplies since Saturday had been resolved.

www.wsj.com

This is bad news for the corrupt Eurocrats:

Russia wants to send gas to Europe through surviving Nord Stream-2 line

Moscow is allegedly ready to supply gas to Europe along the surviving line of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, according to Russian Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Novak, Russian financial newspaper Kommersant reported on Oct. 6.

news.yahoo.com

 

[MunosMachos]

Meh. You were celebrating the killing of civilians and the bombing of an civilian bridge just a few days ago.

Ukrain has killed countless civilians when they shell cities in Dunbass.

Funny how people complain when Russia finally fights back. (Even though still very limited.)

 

[Paulsie]

Working class people standing together to bring stupid politicians to their senses does work:

Russia Resumes Gas Deliveries to Italy

Russian gas giant Gazprom and its main Italian buyer, Eni, said a bureaucratic hurdle with Austrian authorities that had blocked supplies since Saturday had been resolved.

www.wsj.com

This is bad news for the corrupt Eurocrats:

Russia wants to send gas to Europe through surviving Nord Stream-2 line

Moscow is allegedly ready to supply gas to Europe along the surviving line of the Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline, according to Russian Deputy Prime Minister Alexander Novak, Russian financial newspaper Kommersant reported on Oct. 6.

news.yahoo.com

Might this something to do with the new PM?

 

[konfab]

And you believe them? The bridge is clearly a militry target, what was the military target there where attacking in the middle of Kyiv, a city hundreds of miles behind the front lines of this conflict?

I don't know if this was the case with the picture, but there has been a history of both sides using schools for military purposes.

From 2016:

Both Ukrainian government forces and Russia-backed militants have carried out indiscriminate or deliberate attacks on schools using heavy artillery, mortar, and in some cases unguided rockets. They have also used schools for military purposes, deploying military forces in and near schools. They frequently broke or burned school furniture, including classroom doors, chairs and desks. In most instances, schools that were used by fighters remain unsafe because troops left behind heavy artillery or unused munitions. For example, in the last week of November 2014, at a school in Pervomaisk that rebels were using as a base, Human Rights Watch saw signs on trees next to the school that said, “Entry Prohibited. Shoot to kill” and “Mines.”

Occupying a school can turn it into a legitimate military target and can put students at risk, in violation of the laws of war. Deploying military in and near schools exposes important education infrastructure to damage and destruction.

Ukraine’s Ministry of Education and Science has acknowledged that Ukrainian government forces have used schools for military purposes. The Ukrainian government should deter the military use of schools by, among other things, endorsing the UN Safe Schools Declaration.

This is from the obviously Russian state backed organisation of unicef:

https://gdc.unicef.org/resource/attacks-schools-military-use-schools-during-armed-conflict-eastern-ukraine#:~:text=Ukraine's%20Ministry%20of%20Education%20and,the%20UN%20Safe%20Schools%20Declaration.



Even in this current conflict, the Ukrainians haven't been really been playing according to the safe schools guidelines:

The Ukrainian military has routinely set up bases in schools in towns and villages in Donbas and in the Mykolaiv area. Schools have been temporarily closed to students since the conflict began, but in most cases the buildings were located close to populated civilian neighbourhoods

At 22 out of 29 schools visited, Amnesty International researchers either found soldiers using the premises or found evidence of current or prior military activity – including the presence of military fatigues, discarded munitions, army ration packets and military vehicles.

Russian forces struck many of the schools used by Ukrainian forces. In at least three towns, after Russian bombardment of the schools, Ukrainian soldiers moved to other schools nearby, putting the surrounding neighbourhoods at risk of similar attacks.

In a town east of Odesa, Amnesty International witnessed a broad pattern of Ukrainian soldiers using civilian areas for lodging and as staging areas, including basing armoured vehicles under trees in purely residential neighbourhoods, and using two schools located in densely populated residential areas. Russian strikes near the schools killed and injured several civilians between April and late June – including a child and an older woman killed in a rocket attack on their home on 28 June.

In Bakhmut, Ukrainian forces were using a university building as a base when a Russian strike hit on 21 May, reportedly killing seven soldiers. The university is adjacent to a high-rise residential building which was damaged in the strike, alongside other civilian homes roughly 50 metres away. Amnesty International researchers found the remains of a military vehicle in the courtyard of the bombed university building.

International humanitarian law does not specifically ban parties to a conflict from basing themselves in schools that are not in session. However, militaries have an obligation to avoid using schools that are near houses or apartment buildings full of civilians, putting these lives at risk, unless there is a compelling military need. If they do so, they should warn civilians and, if necessary, help them evacuate. This did not appear to have happened in the cases examined by Amnesty International.

Again, a notorious pro-kremlin news source of Amnesty international.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...krainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

 

[RVQ]

I disagree with your assessment.

Europe was strongest before the war, (which was already in some trouble due to Covid nonsense, now affecting the British bond market for example). they are now run by incompetent green party idiots wanting to de-industrialise their own countries and there's no easy way out of that downward spiral. Good luck fighting a serious conflict with that.

Escalating to that point would also be stupid. The last Ukrainian and some special operators of other countries will be thrown at Russia. But it is unlikely that it would escalates beyond that.

Why are you changing the topic to the markets/ economy? I'm referring to arms and military. Yes the average household globally is suffering economically but spending in defense by NATO member countries has gone up significantly, they were actually cutting defence budgets until Putin pit boots in Ukraine.

 

[Paulsie]

What is this nonsense form of argumentation? Believe Russia only when it suits you and you can spin it. Lol.

Ukraine says some missiles were shot down, not all missiles hit the target. I doubt the numbers from both sides, but not their statements completely.
Your logic is incorrect. Multiple missile were fired at each target. One missing does not mean the target wasn't hit.

 

[MunosMachos]

With the ongoing destruction of the German economy due to the sanctions, the USA hopes to benefit from the ensuing labour flight and relocation of German manufacturing. And there are hopes that the USA and Europe will work together against China:

Europe and the US must compete with China

The future of Beijing’s Belt and Road Initiative will likely hinge on the viability of liberal democratic alternatives.

www.politico.eu

But the Germans must have looked at the USA's financial capitalism and thought "no thanks, we prefer industrial capitalism".

German companies pour more investment in China, as ‘decoupling’ hype wanes - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

China, EU extend currency swap for 3 yrs, in fresh sign of close economic ties - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

 

[Cray]

Yesterday we were discussing the essence of what a military target is and is not. Some here warned that if you declare a bridge as a military target simply because it was used by the army, you can turn anything into one by virtue of army using it.

You act like this is something unprecedented in the history of War. Control of bridges across major rivers has always been hugely strategic in war. Take World War 2 as an example. Bridges that allowed you access needed to be captured, and bridges that helped the enemy were blown up.

Specific example

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludendorff_Bridge

The allies captured it intact as it gave them a way across the Rhine, the Germans tried many times to blow it up because it would hinder the allies' access to Germany, and they eventually succeeded. Nothing about these actions was considered untoward, it all made sense in the context of fighting a war.

And here we are I'm afraid.

So, you think that the Russians were really strict and disciplined about not attacking civilian areas during the war before their bridge was attacked, seriously, that is your argument?

 

[MunosMachos]

Might this something to do with the new PM?

I don't know.

 

[Cray]

I don't know if this was the case with the picture, but there has been a history of both sides using schools for military purposes.

From 2016:

Fair point, one hopes that they no longer do it, I find it unlikely that there would be a school repurposed for military purposes so far from the front lines.

 

[Cray]

Again, a notorious pro-kremlin news source of Amnesty international.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...krainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

That report was widely disputed, wasn't it?

https://www.politico.eu/article/amnesty-ukraine-report-wrong/

https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...-amnesty-intl-report-sparks-furor-resignation

The head of Amnesty International’s Ukraine chapter has resigned, saying the human rights organization disregarded her opposition to publishing a report that claimed Ukrainian forces had exposed civilians to Russian attacks by basing themselves in populated areas.

 

[rietrot]

I don't know if this was the case with the picture, but there has been a history of both sides using schools for military purposes.

From 2016:





This is from the obviously Russian state backed organisation of unicef:

https://gdc.unicef.org/resource/attacks-schools-military-use-schools-during-armed-conflict-eastern-ukraine#:~:text=Ukraine's%20Ministry%20of%20Education%20and,the%20UN%20Safe%20Schools%20Declaration.



Even in this current conflict, the Ukrainians haven't been really been playing according to the safe schools guidelines:


Again, a notorious pro-kremlin news source of Amnesty international.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/n...krainian-fighting-tactics-endanger-civilians/

This particular case there is a large administrative/government building (don't know what it actually is)off to the left of the playground obviously excluded in some propaganda. Additional to scenarios I already outlined it could also be that that was the target and Russia is claiming hitting the sidewalk outside the building, possibly breaking a few windows as a successful strike.

 

[konfab]

That report was widely disputed, wasn't it?

https://www.politico.eu/article/amnesty-ukraine-report-wrong/

https://www.latimes.com/world-natio...-amnesty-intl-report-sparks-furor-resignation

From the article

In a controversial report released on August 4, the organization claims that the Ukrainian military endangered civilians “by establishing bases and operating weapons systems in populated residential areas, including in schools and hospitals.” But in hastily publishing its findings, Amnesty has overlooked the severe implications of giving Russia exactly what it’s been looking for — a shift in blame.

First and foremost, the premise alone of Amnesty’s report is questionable. Many experts have said that the Ukrainian military has acted within the bounds of international humanitarian law by using vacant school buildings, positioning its soldiers in urban areas in order to protect them from being overrun by Russian troops.

And it is reasonable to use schools as military bases when you are being attacked. But that doesn't change the fact that once a military uses a school for a military purpose it is a military target. It sucks, but those are the rules that international law has created and supposedly everyone should follow.

Interestingly, if you go and search for the US military using schools as military positions during Iraq and Afghanistan, it is very, very scarce.

 

[rietrot]

Why are you changing the topic to the markets/ economy? I'm referring to arms and military. Yes the average household globally is suffering economically but spending in defense by NATO member countries has gone up significantly, they were actually cutting defence budgets until Putin pit boots in Ukraine.

Because it is related, military requires funding all the time.
Maybe an angry enough population in hard times can be directed at Russia, and the fact that the west is so docile is due to good times.
That would be a counter to what I said to you earlier.

 

[Cray]

From the article


And it is reasonable to use schools as military bases when you are being attacked. But that doesn't change the fact that once a military uses a school for a military purpose it is a military target.

That I agree with.

 

[DreamKing]

Putin just told NATO exactly what he's going to do and he's not bluffing | Redacted w Clayton Morris​

 

[Cray]

Putin just told NATO exactly what he's going to do and he's not bluffing | Redacted w Clayton Morris​

"The Four regions officially become part of Russia", phew, starting the BS in the first 15 seconds...

 

[RVQ]

Because it is related, military requires funding all the time.
Maybe an angry enough population in hard times can be directed at Russia, and the fact that the west is so docile is due to good times.
That would be a counter to what I said to you earlier.

There's actually a significant spike in defence spending this year, guess you missed that information.