Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 5

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MiW

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Mirai said:
Yes as long as you don't claim to say US is meddling in Europe. Because being European - I have dual citizenship - I want US to be involved in Europe. That's at least one person
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+1
Few years ago I was wondering why Trump was threatening to pull USA out of NATO, only now I see the implications of potentially USA staying out of EU politics.
 
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meduza.io

Russian conscripts not receiving promised financial benefits — Meduza

Russian Presidential Human Rights Council member Kirill Kabanov reported Monday that his office regularly receives messages about conscripts around the country either not receiving the payments the government has promised or receiving them only after delays. In addition, he said, volunteer...
meduza.io meduza.io
 
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www.pravda.com.ua

108 women released from Russian captivity

VALENTYNA ROMANENKO — MONDAY, 17 OCTOBER 2022, 18:43
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua

Details: Yermak said that among the released are young women illegally imprisoned in temporarily occupied areas of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, who were captured even before the large-scale invasion.

People have been imprisoned since 2019 in so-called republics [Luhansk People’s Republic and Donetsk People’s Republic - ed.] for their "extremely pro-Ukrainian stance", which was expressed in the transportation of humanitarian aid for orphans, fabricated "espionage" and "terrorism", said the Head of the Office of the President of Ukraine.
 
Paulsie

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Mirai said:
As long as you don't claim to say US is meddling in Europe. Because being European - I have dual citizenship - I want US to be involved in Europe. That's at least one person.
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I certainly don't want them to be involved as everything they do is to their advantage and the detriment of others.
 
Sneeky

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Matata said:
Even more news on the su-34 jet. It seems like russian military confused their own su-34 for a UKR jet. It seems like it was not pilot error in this case:



https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1582059652329902080
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Looks like it may have hit an obstacle. Powerline, tower, mast prior to final impact.
Figure the pilot was already out and it was on its own final trajectory at that point.
 
Paulsie

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Cray said:
100%, was just a hypothetical, the coup thing is nonsense, but even if it were true, it has no bearing on the current situation.
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Messrs at Cato Institute, the very definition of promoting American interests, disagreed in 2017.

Despite his leadership defects and character flaws, Yanukovych had been duly elected in balloting that international observers considered reasonably free and fair—about the best standard one can hope for outside the mature Western democracies. A decent respect for democratic institutions and procedures meant that he ought to be able to serve out his lawful term as president, which would end in 2016.
Neither the domestic opposition nor Washington and its European Union allies behaved in that fashion.
The extent of the Obama administration’s meddling in Ukraine’s politics was breathtaking.
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Nuland and Pyatt were engaged in such planning at a time when Yanukovych was still Ukraine’s lawful president. It was startling to have diplomatic representatives of a foreign country—and a country that routinely touts the need to respect democratic processes and the sovereignty of other nations—to be scheming about removing an elected government and replacing it with officials meriting U.S. approval.
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Instead, U.S. officials were blatantly meddling in Ukraine. Such conduct was utterly improper. The United States had no right to try to orchestrate political outcomes in another country—especially one on the border of another great power. It is no wonder that Russia reacted badly to the unconstitutional ouster of an elected, pro‐Russian government—an ouster that occurred not only with Washington’s blessing, but apparently with its assistance.
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The mention of US and democracy in Ukraine is nothing more than hypocrisy.
 
Matata

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Sneeky said:
Looks like it may have hit an obstacle. Powerline, tower, mast prior to final impact.
Figure the pilot was already out and it was on its own final trajectory at that point.
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That could also be the case. At first I thought it was pilot error, but I am not so sure anymore. Either way it is a very expensive plane.
 
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Paulsie said:
I certainly don't want them to be involved as everything they do is to their advantage and the detriment of others.
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Certainly nobody does that but sometimes one can't expect the US to do things for free. There is no free lunch. There is always a choice and America is often the best choice. It's not a choice among true independence and domination by US, or Russia or France/Germany, etc but domination by the US, domination by France/Germany or France/Germany/Russia. The suggestion that it's best to get rid of the US and Russian influence won't help because that opens up central/eastern Europe to domination by France-Germany, and they have have economic benefits from cozing up to Russia. Former Eastern Europe is still weak economically and divided and can't play off France/Germany as equals. Hence alliances have to be forged with those who would not want France/Germany and Russia to dominate Europe too much, namely the "Anglo-Saxons". I say too much, because there are always different streams in various nations and various interests. US would prefer that France and Germany even dominated Europe but they listened to them, these two however are reluctant to do that. Domination by the US is not the best but is the most palatable. And usually comes in the form of soft power but as you know with Russia soft power can turn into full on special operation at any stage.
Great Britain's foreign policy has always been to keep Europe such that no single power can consolidate Europe under itself since even before the days of Napoleon. To that end, to a certain degree the Brits will support former Eastern Europe because those countries will remain relatively weak for many decades (if not longer) and do not pose a threat to them but make Europe more balanced, which is to the UK's advantage. The French on the other hand want to compete with UK/US and so need acknowledgement from Russia and their co-operation and friendship and would possibly sell out Eastern Europe to gain influence. As this allows for Russian domination and influence in Europe that won't do for us. Alas as said a perfect situation where we're all equals and everyone respects each other does not exist.
The struggle Ukraine is facing is also a struggle for continued freedom from Russian influence and threats in former Eastern Europe. People who bring up Bandera don't understand this. Yes there is some percentage of Ukrainians who like Bandera despite the OUN/UPA's murderous ways and there are talks going on about that, but Ukraine does not pose a threat, it's not a Banderite country and hopefully the goodwill gained by Europe helping them will be reciprocated and they will learn to accept that some of their former leaders during WW2 were not the best of people. In addition they need help and deserve help because people in need on one's doorstep should be helped the soonest, and one can't blame them for some atrocities committed by only a small portion of their movements in the 30s/40s. You build friendship by helping people who are in need. Children who fled Ukraine as refugees will be harder to convert into genuine Banderites because they will remember the help they received in childhood and no amount of BS will change what you internalise as a child. When this war ends there will be serious talks with Ukraine over some aspects of their history and who some of their people see as heroes. On the other hand given Russia where Joe Stalin still enjoys a high approval rating in a country with nukes and huge population and economic resources such nostalgia is more dangerous than one for UPA.
 
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