Russo-Ukrainian War - 2022 Edition - Part 5

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Solarion

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rietrot said:
Only if the west keeps up with the idea that there cannot be any peace. Keep the war going and that will be the outcome.

Well they'll take all of eastern Ukraine. They don't have support from the population in the west and they know it. So it would be silly to try and occupy a more hostile region. They rely on popular support as evidenced by the referendums.
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An invader does not require your cooperation or resistance. They are going to take over regardless. War is about making it as difficult for them as possible. A concept which is lost on many people.

I wish I knew where this naive idea came from that your enemy will see your willingness to cooperate and make peace as a signal to rather be kind and let you off of the hook. This is the real world son. If you do not fight and choose to beg, plead, play the nice guy, you will get chewed up and spat out.
 
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rietrot

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greg0205 said:
Okay, time to cowboy up then.

How many Russians need to die on foreign soil for you to admit your daddy Vladdy is wrong.

Don't punk out, give us a number we can hold you to.
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It will be Russian soil now.
And wrong about what? That the west and Ukraine threatened Russia and Russian speaking people in what used to be Ukraine. Even if 100% of Russians die that is still true, it is even more true the more they die. Don't know how Putin can be wrong considering the bigger picture. You could argue they should have sacrificed the people of the Dunbass and defend on Russia's current border, but it's the same problem.
 
konfab

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Solarion said:
An invader does not require your cooperation or resistance. They are going to take over regardless. War is about making it as difficult for them as possible. A concept which is lost on many people.

I wish I knew where this naive idea came from that your enemy will see your willingness to cooperate and make peace as a signal to rather be kind and let you off of the hook. This is the ****ing real world son. If you do not fight and choose to beg, plead, play the nice guy, you will get chewed up and spat out.
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If only Israel would follow that advice with Palestine. :laugh:

The problem in Ukraine, and specifically the regions that Russia invaded are that there are substantial groups that feel alienated from the rest of Ukraine. There is an element of a civil war to this conflict as well.
 
rietrot

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Solarion said:
An invader does not require your cooperation or resistance. They are going to take over regardless. War is about making it as difficult for them as possible. A concept which is lost on many people.

I wish I knew where this naive idea came from that your enemy will see your willingness to cooperate and make peace as a signal to rather be kind and let you off of the hook. This is the ****ing real world son. If you do not fight and choose to beg, plead, play the nice guy, you will get chewed up and spat out.
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The real world isn't call of duty were you just run around killing everyone.

Why did the US fail in the middle east? They didn't have local support. As easy as that. You cannot hold territory without local support.
 
greg0205

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rietrot said:
It will be Russian soil now.
And wrong about what? That the west and Ukraine threatened Russia and Russian speaking people in what used to be Ukraine. Even if 100% of Russians die that is still true, it is even more true the more they die. Don't know how Putin can be wrong considering the bigger picture. You could argue they should have sacrificed the people of the Dunbass and defend on Russia's current border, but it's the same problem.
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Oh, so they *are* a wannabe-empire now... Lebensraum and Anschluss and Absiedlung and one, true Tzar, amirite?

Careful, riettie, your fascism is showing.
 
konfab

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rietrot said:
The real world isn't call of duty were you just run around killing everyone.

Why did the US fail in the middle east? They didn't have local support. As easy as that. You cannot hold territory without local support.
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Because they were not committed to total war. Same reason why they failed in Vietnam.
 
ForceFate

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rietrot said:
The real world isn't call of duty were you just run around killing everyone.

Why did the US fail in the middle east? They didn't have local support. As easy as that. You cannot hold territory without local support.
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Russia bit a chunk off Finland in the war between the 2 countries. The allied forces overran the Nazis without local support. The Nazis overran France without local support.
 
Matata

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konfab

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ForceFate said:
Russia bit a chunk off Finland in the war between the 2 countries. The allied forces overran the Nazis without local support. The Nazis overran France without local support.
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Read what Riettie said:
They didn't have local support. As easy as that. You cannot hold territory without local support.
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In France, they surrendered to the Nazis and the Nazis had themselves a puppet government:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France

Marching in with tanks and destroying anything in sight when you have superior firepower is relatively easy. If you don't want to do that, you have to go in slowly and root out pockets of resistance. Which means you need local support to do that.

When the allies invaded Europe, they had already setup resistance in pretty much every theatre of war they entered.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Resistance

Even in Vietnam, the US had relatively good control over the south, which was why they could hold it until local US support for South Vietnam fell:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War

And yes, I still stand by my thesis that if the US went total war in north Vietnam, they would have won.
 
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